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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #321 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:16 am 
Gosei
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Oops. Am I right in now thinking the C2 threat followup leads to a white-take-first approach ko for black?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | 0 . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | 9 . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | 8 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 4 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . 6 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | X 2 6 O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | O 1 O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | 3 4 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . X 5 O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Offline EdLee
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Post #322 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:17 am 
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To get an accurate count, post an SGF of the game up to the current move.
:w7: = 7 W stones = ( :white: :white: :white: :white: :white: :white: :white: ) in robin's lid.
:b3: = 3 B stones = ( :black: :black: :black: ) in 1986's lid. :)

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #323 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:19 am 
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Loons, why :b6: in your first dia?

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #324 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:21 am 
Gosei
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Because I clearly need to do more easy tsumego.

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #325 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:17 pm 
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1986: apologies, I thougt you understood the convention normally used here on L19; :w2: represents 2 white stones as prisoners, and so on. Doing it this way is supposed to eliminate ambiguity, apparently :scratch:

EdLee: I am keeping an SGF version of the game to analyse on, and can assure you that the prisoner numbers I have been posting have been correct at all times. (The time I inverted the order of colours was not "facetious", as perceval says - although I don't take this as a slight and appreciate your post :) - it was simply a random choice when I realised that 1986 had changed the count. I didn't bother to check the order they were in before.) If there is any dispute I am happy to post my SGF, but I believe 1986 agrees with me, since our differences are only in the colour, which it now turns out is to do with how we are interpreting the notation.

I will continue for now using the usual L19 convention as given by Ed, but if my opponent objects I will happily change (after all, it doesn't really matter :)).

Oh, and @Loons, I'm glad that if I ever get to your level (which I rate as unlikely), this will be classed as an "easy tsumego" :lol: (Yes, I realise, you probably are talking about some hypothetical problem many moves in the future, but even so - I admit I'm pretty lost here...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count :w8: :b3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Well, as I just said, in unhidden text no less, I feel way out of my depth here. But I think this simple capture is best. If white continues taking away my liberties in the lower right, I can win the ko, and in compensation for losing something somewhere to a ko threat, I can play G18 and create some fun interestingness. If he simply responds on top instead, then I think I will have gained a move and will be able to respond to one more of his ko threats than I would have been able to before.

Glad to see that we're now again attracting some stronger players as I no doubt go down in a blaze of not-quite-glory :D
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #326 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:51 pm 
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So I got the colors switched cool cool cool. I'm ready when u are!
:tmbup:

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #327 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:02 am 
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Whoops, I made my move last night, but somehow managed to put it inside the hide tags with the comments :oops: :oops: Let's try again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count :w8: :b3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #328 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm182 Prisoner Count :w8: :b3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 1 X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm going in for the kill, this makes the ko fight more intense, my best best for a don't ignore ko threat i think is c2 :rambo:

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #329 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm183 Prisoner Count :w9: :b3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O 1 |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Hmm, although that's an entirely obvious response, I've only just realised what it means - that I'm actually going to lose this capturing race :sad: White will play the local ko threat of T8, capturing the two stones. I must remove one of the two liberties in the eye, then white retakes the ko. I can't retake, and whatever I play white will play T3 and capture me next move. On the plus side, this will give me two moves elsewhere, with which I can hope to do some damage (for example, atariing L15, then capturing it, and using the move after I lose the semeai to kill white's corner), but it's unlikely to make up for 80-odd points lost in this fight :sad: But I'll see what I can get out of this, and reassess when the dust has settled.
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #330 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm184 Prisoner Count :w9: :b5:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 1 |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK, continue on with the plan he has to do something worthwhile for me not to continue on with the kill, he might just play atrai again at t9 or 10 then i will just retake ko and go :rambo:

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #331 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:54 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 Prisoner Count :w9: :b5:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O 1 |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Nothing much to say here that I didn't say in my last post...

In short: I'm about to lose the capturing race (unless 1986 deems it worth answering the ko threat I play next - almost certainly an atari on L15 - in which case I'll simply capture his group and accept losing something fairly big to a ko threat, as I still have H18), but am hoping to kill something fairly large in compensation, like his upper-right corner. I keep thinking things are about to settle down, but I doubt it - the gloves are definitely off now :rambo:
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #332 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm186 Prisoner Count :w9: :b6:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


see previous post

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #333 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm187 Prisoner Count :w9: :b6:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . 1 O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As already discussed.

I should say that, whatever the outcome here (and I'm well aware that I may well find myself having to resign once the dust has settled), I will have to thank my opponent for giving me one of the most enjoyable games of go I've ever had :D
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #334 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm188 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . 1 O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK, back to the KO, i can handle at least one more KO because c2 is a unstoppable KO threat if he ignores i play b2 and kill the lower left corner, putting me in good position to fight for the win. as a matter of a fact i hope and pray he ignores c2 :D

right now ignoring here is a no no i can take the lower right corner yes, that would feel good but i will still be Significantly behind, besides if i take now my lower right group will be the only group that can safely enter the center, since I'm blocking and continuing the KO i have more options for the center

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Offline perceval
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #335 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:40 pm 
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rarely seen a game so intense :clap: ... because here we have strong players giving us "the solution" and we see them struggle and miss opportunities and then have a second chance ...
Here if i understand correctly W should have ignored and proceed with the ko
i must say i would not do much better i think this is really hard :blackeye:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #336 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:17 am 
Tengen
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Am I misreading?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm188 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . 4 O X X X 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X C X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O 2 . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X 1 |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This just seems to live for White?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O b |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think White capturing the ko has to be the only move.
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Offline lefuet
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #337 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:44 am 
Dies in gote
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Posts: 43
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 14
Rank: sdk
Universal go server handle: lefuet
topazg wrote:
Am I misreading?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm188 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . 4 O X X X 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X C X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O 2 . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X 1 |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This just seems to live for White?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O b |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w9: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X O X X X O . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O X . O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think White capturing the ko has to be the only move.

I think that you are correct that black needs another move to kill the UR corner. But white also needs another move to win the ko.
I've not really understood the situation myself yet. ..
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Offline Koroviev
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #338 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:35 am 
Lives with ko

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I'm amazed W answered that ko threat. I would certainly have taken the ko, since it's rescuing a huge group that should defnintely have died. The top right corner looks unhealthy, but not terminal.
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #339 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:39 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm189 Prisoner Count :w10: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O 1 |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK, he's decided to answer - I've no idea if that's best or not (although I suspect it probably is). Next I plan to ignore any ko threat he plays, but I may waver when I see what it is...
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #340 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:09 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 502
Location: Coloradao USA
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm190 :w10: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


see previous post.

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