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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #41 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:23 am 
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Aphelion wrote:
Simba:

At Move 12, why high and not low?


If I were to extend on D6? I read in a book that if you have the adjacent hoshi point in that direction (which I do at D16), you should favour the high extension over the low one. As for what I'm afraid of, well, it doesn't look trivial for me to erode much of his territory at the bottom after he gets in J4 especially. I could aim at L4 as I said, but that stone wouldn't have much room and would just get chased with black making profit while doing so. I'm probably missing something - like I said, my fuseki skills are terrible, but all I can go by is my logic :) .

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Post #42 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:43 am 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
if I did that, black gets a ton of space at the bottom
Could you rank the relative sizes of the gaps:
(a)(between :ex: and :ex:);
(b)(between :es: and :es:);
(c)( :ec:... :ec:);
(d)( :et:... :et: )
from the biggest to the smallest...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . S . . . . b . . . . S X . . . . |
$$ | . . C O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . O M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . C O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X T . . d . . T X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and how does this relate to your feeling of the urgency of (d)?

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #43 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:44 am 
Gosei
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Aph / obs. only.
Simba is probably alluding to an allusion to this sort of local continuation. But evidently I am not a dependable source of good joseki :P.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc W tenukis the marked stone.
$$ ----------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ . . B . 7 3 2 6 O X X . . . |
$$ . . . 9 O 4 1 . O O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #44 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:52 am 
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Simba,
Aphelion wrote:
Simba: At Move 12, why high and not low?
Simba wrote:
If I were to extend on D6?
No, I think Aph meant how did you decide between :w12: (4th line) versus (a) 3rd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . X . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 a . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$--------------[/go]

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Post #45 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:58 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Simba,
Simba wrote:
if I did that, black gets a ton of space at the bottom
Could you rank the relative sizes of the gaps:
(a)(between :ex: and :ex:);
(b)(between :es: and :es:);
(c)( :ec:... :ec:);
(d)( :et:... :et: )
from the biggest to the smallest...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . S . . . . b . . . . S X . . . . |
$$ | . . C O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . O M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . C O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X T . . d . . T X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and how does this relate to your feeling of the urgency of (d)?


I'm not really sure I'm afraid - I'm not sure how to evaluate concretely how big a move is. I mean, c looks really big for example at first glance, but then I realise "Oh, that's not even the tiniest bit secure, my opponent could invade if I played c so easily." If I had to play on one of those four points, I'd choose a. This quite securely gets me some more space, and it also prevents black from going here. Maybe I should've tenukied black's approach on F3 and played a instead? Mmm, didn't even consider that...


EdLee wrote:
Simba,
Aphelion wrote:
Simba: At Move 12, why high and not low?
Simba wrote:
If I were to extend on D6?
No, I think Aph meant how did you decide between :w12: (4th line) versus (a) 3rd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . X . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 a . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$--------------[/go]


Ahhh, okay, I see. Well, because black has strength in the top right, so I'd rather take a more secure, low move than a high move. It's kind of the other side of the reason as to why I was going to play high in response to black's approach at F3 :) .

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Post #46 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:14 am 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
I'm not really sure I'm afraid
The literal, arithmetical sizes of the gaps, that is, just count the dots between the two end-points.
Sorry, I did not mean to ask you to evaluate the value of a move;
rather, just the basic geometric counting of the distance --
and you don't even need to be accurate -- just the relative sizes is enough. :)

This is good -- we can see more clearly your thought process.

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Post #47 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:16 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Simba,
Simba wrote:
I'm not really sure I'm afraid
The literal, arithmetical sizes of the gaps, that is, just count the dots between the two end-points.
Sorry, I did not mean to ask you to evaluate the value of a move;
rather, just the basic geometric counting of the distance --
and you don't even need to be accurate -- just the relative sizes is enough. :)

This is good -- we can see more clearly your thought process.


Ahhh, okay :) , then c > b > d > a.

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Post #48 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:17 am 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
Well, because black has strength in the top right, so I'd rather take a more secure, low move than a high move.
But you took a high move with :w12: (4th line); you did not take the more secure low move on the 3rd line --
this was Aph's question. :)

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Post #49 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:20 am 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
c > b > d > a.
Correct. :)

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Post #50 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:38 am 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
c looks really big for example at first glance, but then I realise "Oh, that's not even the tiniest bit secure, my opponent could invade if I played c so easily."
By this reasoning, the following :b5: would be unplayable, wouldn't it? :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #51 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:07 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Simba,
Simba wrote:
c looks really big for example at first glance, but then I realise "Oh, that's not even the tiniest bit secure, my opponent could invade if I played c so easily."
By this reasoning, the following :b5: would be unplayable, wouldn't it? :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Mmm, fair point. But black 5 there is influence based. It can't be reasonable to expect all of that side to become territory. However, on your diagram, c is low. So we are kind of going for a mixture of territory and influence somehow? I've never seen the low move there before (except when my opponent plays it for an invasion).


EdLee wrote:
Simba,
Simba wrote:
Well, because black has strength in the top right, so I'd rather take a more secure, low move than a high move.
But you took a high move with :w12: (4th line); you did not take the more secure low move on the 3rd line --
this was Aph's question. :)


Oh, darn :( , that's annoying, I meant to play it low (see my previous post for my logic behind why I wanted it low) - I just edited the diagram wrongly unfortunately >_< . I thought I had played it low, sorry for the confusion... Ah well >_< .

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #52 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:20 am 
Gosei
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Observers:

I just want to point out that when stronger observers ask pointed questions, it can be a pretty big help to the player. Of course it's a learning game so it doesn't matter too much, but it would be a shame if one player won because they were "asked" more "questions". Maybe at least such advice-questions should be visible to both players?


This post by emeraldemon was liked by 3 people: hman, Joaz Banbeck, Marcus
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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #53 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:47 pm 
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New board postion after movement of q10 to r10...

This ok then Simba?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #54 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:59 pm 
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Simba,
Simba wrote:
However, on your diagram, c is low.
No, a, b, c, d were only referring to the gaps, the general directions; they did not refer to the exact 3rd-line points at all. :)

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Post #55 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Jordus,
Jordus wrote:
New board postion after movement of q10 to r10...
Does this mean this game is open comments? Or semi-open? (It was not specified at the start of the game, so I assumed closed comments. :))

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #56 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:04 pm 
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@EdLee
Closed comments... I was pm'd by Simba about it.

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Post #57 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Thanks, Jordus. :)

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Post #58 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:30 pm 
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emeraldemon,
emeraldemon wrote:
I just want to point out that when stronger observers ask pointed questions, it can be a pretty big help to the player.
Of course it's a learning game so it doesn't matter too much, but it would be a shame if one player won because they were "asked" more "questions".
Maybe at least such advice-questions should be visible to both players?
Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, it would, so of course I already had thought about all this before I posted my questions and comments.
Whether each comment is hidden or open to either or both players should be considered individually, case by base.
But this is a good reminder. And some comments will be unhidden at the appropriate times. Thanks. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Post #59 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:35 pm 
Gosei
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A more serious repercussion is that we're going to have to start calling Ed "Zazu"

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Post #60 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Loons,
Who is Zazu? :)

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