It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:56 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #41 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:36 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1161
Location: VA, USA
Liked others: 183
Was liked: 100
Rank: KGS 6k
Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Slava Ukraini!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #42 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:43 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
A minor point: in fact this bad result for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . 6 . a . .
$$ | . 4 1 2 3 . .
$$ | . X O X 5 . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


is better for black than:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Due to the ko yose at a.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:44 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
@Ed, et al.

Thanks very much for all of that. If I'm understanding the last example correctly, Black is able to at the cost of a dame point (since the point he's giving up isn't going to become territory, he's going to have to fill it in, prevent white from having at least one sente move, even two if he persists, which is clearly worth more than the "not even one point" value of the move.

I see what you are saying, and it was very helpful because taking account of current and future sente is the current thing I'm trying to learn. :clap:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:07 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 312
Liked others: 52
Was liked: 41
Rank: 7K KGS
KGS: tictac
Classic question : how do you handle stones near a wall ?
here the distance (please correct if i am wrong) of K16 to the W wall seems ok to me, so does that mean that the stone should be left alone ?
that would hinder the whole W wall purpose ?.
to try to use it, is the corner approach O17 a good idea ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . 6 . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Usually i dislike playing this approach with an enemy stone at K16 as the O17 group is not comfortable but here maybe K16 is more uncomfortable ? a running battle will follow, will the Wall be useful or made irrelevant ?? i cant decide
example of running battle:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . 6 . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . 7 . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i really cant say if i prefer B or W, any insights ?
is O17 a good move locally (B is not forced to play the kick after all but in that case maybe it puts useful pressure on K16 ) ?or O18 ? or something else ?
(for the whole board there might be bigger area like R10,O3 even if O17 is good locally)

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #45 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:32 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Perceval, my immediate feeling is k16 is a bad overplay and too close to the wall. O17 or n17 would be better. When White invades as in your diagrams k16 seems weaker than white's group due to the wall. White has a significant lead already.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #46 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:54 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Shaddy,
Shaddy wrote:
If white extends the atari'd stone, Black will not extend, Black will play diagonal, which leaves a cutting point in the white wall.
Do you mean (a) (and not (b))...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . a . .
$$ | . X O X . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . b . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...to this result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 1 4 2 5 .
$$ | . X O X 3 . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #47 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:25 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 329
Location: Denmark
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 65
Rank: 6D Tygem
Universal go server handle: pluspy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this was a mistake. If it was low it would be harder to chase but I would try to enclose it and try to control the center. Now I will attack since this stone doesn't have a base yet, and is floating around near my wall (which is strong enough). Maybe the keima enclosure toward my wall would be enough for black? Now It will be a battle! but I can't complain :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #48 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:26 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
OtakuViking,
You had the beginning HIDE tag but no ending /HIDE tag for your Post #47, so I added it for you. Hope it's OK. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #49 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:39 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
Yes, ed.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #50 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:13 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 329
Location: Denmark
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 65
Rank: 6D Tygem
Universal go server handle: pluspy
Whoops :oops:

Thanks ed ;-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #51 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:17 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1161
Location: VA, USA
Liked others: 183
Was liked: 100
Rank: KGS 6k
Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Jump around! Yeah, I really don't like this situation. Oh well. Who says I have to like it? :D Anyway, I'm going to enjoy trying to live and run while white totally takes advantage of the situation. It'll be tough to win, but I'm going to do my best.

_________________
Slava Ukraini!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #52 Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:44 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 329
Location: Denmark
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 65
Rank: 6D Tygem
Universal go server handle: pluspy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided on being faster with two space. Good or bad decision I wonder:)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #53 Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:43 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1161
Location: VA, USA
Liked others: 183
Was liked: 100
Rank: KGS 6k
Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I figure this will double. It will give me some eye space and allow me to diminish the value of the white wall. I'm 99.34585857494% sure that I will not die here. After all, I'm too young to die! Just kidding.

I think I jumped the gun a bit earlier on in the game, so I'm just trying to settle here and possibly make something of this.

_________________
Slava Ukraini!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #54 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:34 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Important lesson for hailthorn once this bit of action is over:
Argh, hailthorn's thinking is so wrong here. You don't diminish a wall by building two eyes right in front of it whilst your opponent surrounds you in sente. That's exactly what walls are designed to do, transfer their power to other parts of the board by attacking. k12 is the only move, don't get surrounded and also keeps m13 weak. Well, maybe not only, you could consider cutting white's rather thin and overplayish 2 point jump. But that could get hairy and you could do it later once you are out at k12 and safer so can fight harder. White could play l15 peep to fix cut in sente, but that strengthens black and white's shape is still a bit thin.


This post by Uberdude was liked by: illluck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #55 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:50 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
I must admit that I often commit the exact same type of error as hailthorn here T.T

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #56 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:49 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 353
Liked others: 36
Was liked: 14
Rank: German 1k
KGS: 1.Dan
OGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: Celebrir
I guess the mistake which would be normal for me is to attack the two-space-jump, getting surrounded and die :roll:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #57 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:05 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Same for hailthorn, after this local situation,
What Uberdude said.
Not exactly the same, but :b29: reminds me of:
Attachment:
this-is-sparta-chess.jpg
this-is-sparta-chess.jpg [ 94.31 KiB | Viewed 8685 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group