Life In 19x19 :: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

I am trying to decide between "a" and "b".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X b . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . |[/go]

I thought I found a way for Black to live after "a", but now I found a flaw in that variation. "b" looks enticing, as well. A difficult choice ahead.

In any case, even though uranther correctly recognized that his top group is in imminent danger, I don't think his move was the best way to reinforce this group. My right and top groups still have weaknesses, so it would have been better for Black to play a move which would seek to exploit these weaknesses--in addition to protecting his group. I haven't looked too closely at the various possibilities but "c" and "d" seem interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O c X . d O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |[/go]

Instead, uranther seems to be trying to run! Running isn't the best idea for him, however. First of all, I don't think it's possible to run just yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black can't protect both e and f simultaneously $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O 4 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . e 3 f . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black gets cut off with either g or h $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . g . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . h O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

Moreover, if he does end up being able to run, I could get to play the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 1 O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . |[/go]

This would cut off Black's right group and would also give me additional strength for invading Black's moyo on the left.

Incidentally, Black's right group can live locally via the following variation, so it is not critical for this group to have the ability to run:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In any case, following uranther's last move, I expect to gain a profit. The only question is whether that profit will take the form of my killing his entire top group or not. Time for some more reading. :study:

In addition to the two possibilities I mentioned previously, I also looked at the following move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move not only prevents Black's top group from running, but also threatens to kill Black's right group with :w3:

if Black fails to respond to :w1:

. However, I decided to wait with this move. It will still be there after I'm done with Black's top group. In addition to this, if uranther tries to run with his top group, I may very well end up playing :w1:

naturally.

Let me return to a diagram I mentioned in my previous post:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O 4 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . e 3 f . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

Here, I concluded that Black gets cut off because e and f can't be protected simultaneously. However, I should not play like this as this carries unnecessary risk for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . 2 X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 1 O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

White's center stones get separated and White needs to be extremely careful. However, I have better options available to me than this if uranther tries running with his top group.

Finally, as far as the choice between the move in the game and the alternative I was suggesting earlier (at O15), Black lives in both cases. If I played O15, Black has the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X 4 . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 3 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |[/go]

Next, either

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm5 stone saves $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X X . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O # O 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . B . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm5 a and b are miai for Black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 3 a . 6 . 5 . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O X X . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X X . b X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O C O 2 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O 1 . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |[/go]

Black lives after :w23:

(the move in the game), as well, but the move nets me a few more points than O15 does. That said, O15 leads to more complicated variations. Therefore, if I were behind in the game and needed to kill something big to win, I would play O15. However, overplays are not required here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 If I don't connect, I'll quickly run out of eye-space. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O 4 3 X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think White should connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Maybe White will attack like this? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 3 X 2 4 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O 5 . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 If I respond to it, he'll push me around $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O 3 . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 1 4 6 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . 5 X 8 X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . 9 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I think I should respond nearby with a counter-attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Maybe something like this to get eye-space at the top. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 7 . 5 4 6 . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . 3 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Before anything else, I need to say this: what the hell? topazg makes a post, the post immediately gets liked, and then a bunch of other people chime in. :scratch:

This suggests I might have missed something in the past or am missing something in the current position. Of course, it could also be that topazg simply decided to share with the observers a Youtube video of his cat, or something, and did not comment on the game at all. By the way, if I was induced into reviewing the entire game because of a cat video, the cat better be super spectacular--jumping through hoops, playing the piano, and saying "I love you" all at once. Just saying... :mad:

[By the way, we need additional "angry" emoticons. The "mad" and "evil or very mad" ones do little justice to the range of expressions which ire encompasses. For example, it would be nice to have a red-faced smiley with steam coming out from the ears. Moderator, make it happen! :tmbup:

]

Having looked through my past comments, I counted three mistakes--one which I already knew about and two which I did not know about before. The one that I found previously relates to the following diagram (truncated here) from post #17:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 2 5 . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X a b O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O O O O O O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |[/go]

I now believe that White does not have time to play :w2:

and has to play at "a" to try to kill Black. Otherwise, Black can live with "b."

As for the other two mistakes, first, post #10 contains the following diagram (truncated here):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm3 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 7 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 a b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Clearly, after :b10:

, White can play at "a," so Black should probably play at "b" instead. This oversight is inexplicable to me because I noticed it instantly during review. That just goes to show that Go analysis follows the chess-analysis tautology: the longer the lines, the more numerous the mistakes. However, what's truly unfortunate about this error is that it prevented me from considering a play at O9 instead of :w11:

. Let's take a look at what could have happened:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 9 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X C 5 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O X 3 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 X . 6 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm19 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 3 4 X O X X C 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . O X X O X X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is this result better than how the game continued? On the one hand, Black's right group got sealed in; the group lived with almost no territory; White got to secure territory on bottom right; White strengthened his top right group; and White gained potential for creating territory in the center. On the other hand, in the game White got to attack Black's top group, played at K13, and continues to threaten Black's right group. At this moment, it is not apparent to me which outcome is preferable. When I review this game, I'll ponder this question some more.

The final mistake is much more serious in nature than the aforementioned two. Namely, after :w9:

(post #24), Black had a way to save his bottom group as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm9 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 O O 7 X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . 1 . O . X X X 4 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O 3 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White clearly cannot play like this. White would probably have to go for the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O 3 X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this, White would have to go for broke and attempt to kill something big--a task which seems exceedingly difficult to accomplish. Therefore, I consider myself very lucky to have gotten away with :w9:

.

If Black tries to save his group via the same method in the current game position, White can prevail as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X 3 X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thus, the Black group should finally be dead. If it is not, then either the saving sequence is super smart or else I am super stolid.

Finally, as to my :w29:

move in the game, uranther ought to be able to save his group, but he has many options to choose from--and, therefore, many ways to go wrong. He could end coughing up a bunch of points along the way. It should be fun! :clap:

uranther's last move is a mistake, lest I am not seeing something. After my response, my reading tells me that the Black group needs to run to live. Naturally, as it runs, I gain strength against the other weak group.

In post #42, I said that the following sequence kills Black's right group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had another look at this diagram. While I remain steadfast in my belief that the group cannot form two eyes near the right edge of the board, I now see a way for Black to run:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . O . O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, the additional strength I might get from chasing the top Black group could well prove sufficient to stop Black's right group dead in its tracks.

Thus, uranther's position is becoming more perilous with each new move. I am starting to think the game might end before I get the chance to invade Black's moyo on the left. That would be a shame, for I am looking at some very evil invasions up there. :twisted:

jts wrote:

Topazg - I agree that the move he was considering is bad style, and I would flinch away from playing it here myself; I probably couldn't bring myself to think seriously about it in a face to face game. But why are you convinced that thinking about it is bad? I see four options. Either the cut helps B live, or it doesn't; and either the extra move on the top side affects B's status, or it doesn't. Permitting the cut is good if it doesn't help him live and the extra move affects his status; otherwise, it's bad. I'm not sure which of these is supposed to be the ridiculous thing that a pro would never think about.

You've actually more illustrated my point than I did. I didn't say thinking about it is bad (ideally, I think you'd consider every move tree to its conclusion on the whole board if you could), I'm saying it's so inherently yucky looking I wouldn't consider it.

I think strength largely comes from learning how to prune and adapt your instincts so you quickly ignore the rubbish moves and focus on greater depth on the interesting moves (even AI engines work this way), and it's curious to introspectively see myself do it so strongly when I have malkovich comments to compare my thoughts to. However, I also expect I'll miss a bunch of important moves in the process, and how to learn which prunings are good ones and which are bad is beyond me, let alone knowing how to actually force myself to reconsider my instincts. I do suspect that improvement is more often around this process (revisiting and updating our instincts by testing) than we often talk about, that's all.

As an aside, I think this is just as true at professional level as it is at ours - Kageyama was considered the "amateur's professional" (to his chagrin I think) precisely because he often didn't play the "obvious only move" and instead tried to create his own moves that made more sense to him. The scientist in me thoroughly approves with the approach of rejecting conventional wisdom in the attempt to test it by fire so to speak, but this also smells rather of the same pruning issue - the critical professionals were relying on this insta-prune to make good moves quickly, and Kageyama was spending considerably more time and effort trying to make an improvement on the initially obvious response.

Author:	The Intrepid [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
uranther wrote: Recently I've been visiting the Go Club in Denver. Players of all ages (15k-1d) attend the club meetings -- each lasting 4-5 hours -- held in a local & organic café powered by the Wind and Sun. Members give lessons over recent game scenarios; books are consulted for best practices and josekis; and games are deliberated over by the spectators and players. Last time we watched a 1d (who has at least been to the 2004 US Go Congress, judging from the shirt) overwhelm his elder 1k opponent. The match turned into a giant fight which spread across the board, and in the end they were trading prisoners because all the ko fights exhausted their stones. Interesting match! Needless to say, I learn a lot every time I go -- and I drink delicious café beverages while I'm at it! That sounds awesome! I'll be sure to check it out when I'm in town. It may take me some more time to make my next move. Tough decision. I am trying to decide between "a" and "b". Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X b . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . a . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \|[/go]` I thought I found a way for Black to live after "a", but now I found a flaw in that variation. "b" looks enticing, as well. A difficult choice ahead. In any case, even though uranther correctly recognized that his top group is in imminent danger, I don't think his move was the best way to reinforce this group. My right and top groups still have weaknesses, so it would have been better for Black to play a move which would seek to exploit these weaknesses--in addition to protecting his group. I haven't looked too closely at the various possibilities but "c" and "d" seem interesting: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O c X . d O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . \|[/go]` Instead, uranther seems to be trying to run! Running isn't the best idea for him, however. First of all, I don't think it's possible to run just yet. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Black can't protect both e and f simultaneously $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O 4 . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . e 3 f . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Black gets cut off with either g or h $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . g . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . h O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] Moreover, if he does end up being able to run, I could get to play the following: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . 1 O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . 3 . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \|[/go] This would cut off Black's right group and would also give me additional strength for invading Black's moyo on the left. Incidentally, Black's right group can live locally via the following variation, so it is not critical for this group to have the ability to run: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 3 X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] In any case, following uranther's last move, I expect to gain a profit. The only question is whether that profit will take the form of my killing his entire top group or not. Time for some more reading.

Author:	The Intrepid [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm22 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X 2 . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] In addition to the two possibilities I mentioned previously, I also looked at the following move: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This move not only prevents Black's top group from running, but also threatens to kill Black's right group with if Black fails to respond to . However, I decided to wait with this move. It will still be there after I'm done with Black's top group. In addition to this, if uranther tries to run with his top group, I may very well end up playing naturally. Let me return to a diagram I mentioned in my previous post: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O 4 . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . e 3 f . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] Here, I concluded that Black gets cut off because e and f can't be protected simultaneously. However, I should not play like this as this carries unnecessary risk for me: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O O . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X O X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . 3 . 2 X . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . 1 O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] White's center stones get separated and White needs to be extremely careful. However, I have better options available to me than this if uranther tries running with his top group. Finally, as far as the choice between the move in the game and the alternative I was suggesting earlier (at O15), Black lives in both cases. If I played O15, Black has the following: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X 4 . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 3 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \|[/go] Next, either Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm5 stone saves $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O X X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X X . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O # O 1 O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O 2 . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . B . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \|[/go] or Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm5 a and b are miai for Black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . 3 a . 6 . 5 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O X X . 4 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X X . b X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O C O 2 O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O 1 . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \|[/go] Black lives after (the move in the game), as well, but the move nets me a few more points than O15 does. That said, O15 leads to more complicated variations. Therefore, if I were behind in the game and needed to kill something big to win, I would play O15. However, overplays are not required here.

Author:	uranther [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm22 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X 2 . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 3 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 If I don't connect, I'll quickly run out of eye-space. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 2 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O 4 3 X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I think White should connect: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Maybe White will attack like this? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 3 X 2 4 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O 5 . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 If I respond to it, he'll push me around $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O 3 . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 1 4 6 7 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . 5 X 8 X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . 9 O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] So I think I should respond nearby with a counter-attack. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Maybe something like this to get eye-space at the top. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . 7 . 5 4 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	The Intrepid [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm24 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] uranther made his move unexpectedly quickly. This indicates that he might not have given much thought to sacrificing the ataried stone. I believe he should have. If he played the following instead, his group should not have had too much difficulty living: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 2 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] Now, even though Black's group should still be able to live, the task of doing so will be difficult. Even if the group survives, I expect to gain a larger profit of points than I did a move ago. If I played the following instead of the move in the game, uranther could, once more, choose to sacrifice the few stones and live: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc (Edit: corrected ) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O 4 . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X 1 2 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O 5 3 X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . 6 . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] This would represent a nice profit for me in sente, but I hope to gain more ... much more! Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! ... Ahm.

Author:	uranther [ Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm24 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 2 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X 1 . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I'll play this move first, before Q17 to try to get more eye-space. This move also looks to be more sente than Q17.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

#177 The Intrepid vs. uranther http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6562	Page 3 of 4

Author:	The Intrepid [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm26 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . 1 2 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I tried hard to make the following work for White: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X 4 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O 2 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] However, all such attempts proved futile. With White's group split into two and lacking eyes, White would have to spend moves to reinforce the weak groups. This, in turn, would allows Black to settle his group comfortably and, in addition, reduce White's territory. More importantly, one of the two White groups could actually die. Thus, as much as I'd like to kill the Black group straight away, ignoring uranther's last move is not the way to do so.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
For observers: The Intrepid wrote: I tried hard to make the following work for White: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X 4 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O 2 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \|[/go] However, all such attempts proved futile. With White's group split into two and lacking eyes, White would have to spend moves to reinforce the weak groups. This, in turn, would allows Black to settle his group comfortably and, in addition, reduce White's territory. More importantly, one of the two White groups could actually die. Thus, as much as I'd like to kill the Black group straight away, ignoring uranther's last move is not the way to do so. I find this fascinating. The very idea of allowing here makes me so upset as White that I'd never give it a second thought .. in fact, it seems so clearly bad straight away that I would never spend the time to think through any further continuations. I wonder how much of our strength is simply determined by our ability to quickly weed out the clearly bad ideas in a real game - it has less impact in a Malkovich game, but I'm sure if a professional could see my brain's processing over the course of the game, he'd summarise with something like "You had 30 minutes thinking time in this game, but you spent 29 minutes just thinking about complete nonsense - this is why you are weak".

Author:	illluck [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Should I be worried that I DID consider something similar (with the p18 keima instead of the push)? XD I'd probably play it if the p18 area were important for living and that M10 cut weren't there.

Author:	Splatted [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Quote: The very idea of allowing here makes me so upset as White that I'd never give it a second thought .. in fact, it seems so clearly bad straight away that I would never spend the time to think through any further continuations. I feel the same way and I'm several stones weaker than intrepid, so maybe it just wasn't his finest moment. That being said though, during the big brother Malkovich games it was surprisingly common for big brother 1 to correct a move only to have it changed back by big brother 2, so maybe reassessing these "obviously bad" moves is a natural part of getting stronger. Quote: I wonder how much of our strength is simply determined by our ability to quickly weed out the clearly bad ideas in a real game If that were the case it would mean increasing the amount of thinking time per move would have a direct effect on how well we played, but I don't really think that's the case, at least for me. It is useful to have time to think things through, but more often than not I end up playing the same move I would have anyway. I think the time wasted on bad moves is more a symptom of my inability to differentiate good from bad, rather than a problem in itself.

Author:	uranther [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm26 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . 1 2 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I don't think there's any tricky moves I can play here... Just trying to live

Author:	jts [ Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Topazg - I agree that the move he was considering is bad style, and I would flinch away from playing it here myself; I probably couldn't bring myself to think seriously about it in a face to face game. But why are you convinced that thinking about it is bad? I see four options. Either the cut helps B live, or it doesn't; and either the extra move on the top side affects B's status, or it doesn't. Permitting the cut is good if it doesn't help him live and the extra move affects his status; otherwise, it's bad. I'm not sure which of these is supposed to be the ridiculous thing that a pro would never think about.

Author:	The Intrepid [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Sorry, it may take me several more days to make my next move. I need to finish working on a big project this week.

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:15 am ]
Post subject:
If W has read out completely that W can kill B, then I think it's OK to ignore . Permitting the broken shape is OK for W, as long as the global result is good for W (i.e., B dies.) Conversely, it would be a grave mistake (a big miss!) for W to reply to without also considering that W can kill B. (Of course, if W ignored and B still lived, then W would've suffered a big loss.) Both B and W also had to consider the variation if B pushes with (instead of atari with (a)), because maybe it's better for B to save the choice between atari (a) and peep (b), until later: (I haven't been following this game, but I just glanced at a few recent comments; I dunno what I'm talking about! ) Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . B 1 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O a . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . b . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Splatted [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising Intrepid for considering allowing the cut, I was just interested in the questions it raised about positional judgement. Like I said, reassessing moves you normally dismiss as bad may well be an important part of getting stronger, and obviously if you can read out that a bad looking situation leads to a good position then it doesn't matter that it looked bad, but you can't read out everything so there has to be some kind of heuristic process. I think there are many ways in which we cut down on the amount of reading necessary, and one of them is discarding a path once it starts to look bad. The fact that Intrepid spent a long time examining a path that me and Topazg both would have discarded immediately seemed interesting, though on further thought there are so many possible reasons for it that it's probably not worth bothering with.

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Author:	The Intrepid [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm28 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O 2 . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I did not finish my project, yet, and I will likely need the rest of the week to do so. However, I decided to make a move anyway because, obviously, Go is more important. Before anything else, I need to say this: what the hell? topazg makes a post, the post immediately gets liked, and then a bunch of other people chime in. This suggests I might have missed something in the past or am missing something in the current position. Of course, it could also be that topazg simply decided to share with the observers a Youtube video of his cat, or something, and did not comment on the game at all. By the way, if I was induced into reviewing the entire game because of a cat video, the cat better be super spectacular--jumping through hoops, playing the piano, and saying "I love you" all at once. Just saying... [By the way, we need additional "angry" emoticons. The "mad" and "evil or very mad" ones do little justice to the range of expressions which ire encompasses. For example, it would be nice to have a red-faced smiley with steam coming out from the ears. Moderator, make it happen! ] Having looked through my past comments, I counted three mistakes--one which I already knew about and two which I did not know about before. The one that I found previously relates to the following diagram (truncated here) from post #17: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . 2 5 . . 3 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X a b O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O O O O O O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \|[/go] I now believe that White does not have time to play and has to play at "a" to try to kill Black. Otherwise, Black can live with "b." As for the other two mistakes, first, post #10 contains the following diagram (truncated here): Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm3 $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 2 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 a b . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Clearly, after , White can play at "a," so Black should probably play at "b" instead. This oversight is inexplicable to me because I noticed it instantly during review. That just goes to show that Go analysis follows the chess-analysis tautology: the longer the lines, the more numerous the mistakes. However, what's truly unfortunate about this error is that it prevented me from considering a play at O9 instead of . Let's take a look at what could have happened: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 4 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 9 . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 9 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X X 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X C 5 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O X 3 X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 X . 6 . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm19 $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . 3 4 X O X X C 2 \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . O X X O X X . X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Is this result better than how the game continued? On the one hand, Black's right group got sealed in; the group lived with almost no territory; White got to secure territory on bottom right; White strengthened his top right group; and White gained potential for creating territory in the center. On the other hand, in the game White got to attack Black's top group, played at K13, and continues to threaten Black's right group. At this moment, it is not apparent to me which outcome is preferable. When I review this game, I'll ponder this question some more. The final mistake is much more serious in nature than the aforementioned two. Namely, after (post #24), Black had a way to save his bottom group as follows: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm9 $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . 8 O O 7 X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . 1 . O . X X X 4 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . O 3 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` White clearly cannot play like this. White would probably have to go for the following: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O 3 X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] After this, White would have to go for broke and attempt to kill something big--a task which seems exceedingly difficult to accomplish. Therefore, I consider myself very lucky to have gotten away with . If Black tries to save his group via the same method in the current game position, White can prevail as follows: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X 3 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` Thus, the Black group should finally be dead. If it is not, then either the saving sequence is super smart or else I am super stolid. Finally, as to my move in the game, uranther ought to be able to save his group, but he has many options to choose from--and, therefore, many ways to go wrong. He could end coughing up a bunch of points along the way. It should be fun!

Author:	uranther [ Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm28 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O 2 . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Continue making eyespace on top, and I don't want white to play here.

Author:	The Intrepid [ Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm30 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] uranther's last move is a mistake, lest I am not seeing something. After my response, my reading tells me that the Black group needs to run to live. Naturally, as it runs, I gain strength against the other weak group. In post #42, I said that the following sequence kills Black's right group: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I had another look at this diagram. While I remain steadfast in my belief that the group cannot form two eyes near the right edge of the board, I now see a way for Black to run: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . 2 O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O 1 . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 4 X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . O . O X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] However, the additional strength I might get from chasing the top Black group could well prove sufficient to stop Black's right group dead in its tracks. Thus, uranther's position is becoming more perilous with each new move. I am starting to think the game might end before I get the chance to invade Black's moyo on the left. That would be a shame, for I am looking at some very evil invasions up there.

Author:	topazg [ Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
jts wrote: Topazg - I agree that the move he was considering is bad style, and I would flinch away from playing it here myself; I probably couldn't bring myself to think seriously about it in a face to face game. But why are you convinced that thinking about it is bad? I see four options. Either the cut helps B live, or it doesn't; and either the extra move on the top side affects B's status, or it doesn't. Permitting the cut is good if it doesn't help him live and the extra move affects his status; otherwise, it's bad. I'm not sure which of these is supposed to be the ridiculous thing that a pro would never think about. You've actually more illustrated my point than I did. I didn't say thinking about it is bad (ideally, I think you'd consider every move tree to its conclusion on the whole board if you could), I'm saying it's so inherently yucky looking I wouldn't consider it. I think strength largely comes from learning how to prune and adapt your instincts so you quickly ignore the rubbish moves and focus on greater depth on the interesting moves (even AI engines work this way), and it's curious to introspectively see myself do it so strongly when I have malkovich comments to compare my thoughts to. However, I also expect I'll miss a bunch of important moves in the process, and how to learn which prunings are good ones and which are bad is beyond me, let alone knowing how to actually force myself to reconsider my instincts. I do suspect that improvement is more often around this process (revisiting and updating our instincts by testing) than we often talk about, that's all. As an aside, I think this is just as true at professional level as it is at ours - Kageyama was considered the "amateur's professional" (to his chagrin I think) precisely because he often didn't play the "obvious only move" and instead tried to create his own moves that made more sense to him. The scientist in me thoroughly approves with the approach of rejecting conventional wisdom in the attempt to test it by fire so to speak, but this also smells rather of the same pruning issue - the critical professionals were relying on this insta-prune to make good moves quickly, and Kageyama was spending considerably more time and effort trying to make an improvement on the initially obvious response.

Author:	uranther [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm30 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Monkey jumP! I need to counterattack, and this move follows from my last one. Still looking for eyespace though.

Author:	The Intrepid [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Wow! uranther said "enough's enough" and decided to try to kill one of my groups for a change. Awesome! I did see the possibility of the monkey jump and the fact that the jump reduces the eye-space of my top group. However, having played K13 on move , my group does not need to live locally any more--it can run, if need be. Therefore, if we end up in a situation where his group does not have two eyes and is disconnected from the outside, I will win even if my group does not have two eyes either. I'll do some more reading before posting my next move. Assuming the reading I did previously was not flawed, I should be able to kill much (if not all) of uranther's group with the following move (or some other such move which denies Black group's access to the center): [ Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . W . . . . X O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Worst case scenario: I made a reading error, uranther's group lives, and I suffer a loss of ~10 points on top. That is not all that bad. If I don't fail in invading uranther's moyo on the left, I will end up being comfortably ahead on points anyway.