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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #61 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:16 am 
Gosei
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A comparison to the numbers from last move: Fuego only spent 69% of its time on the played move this time. And 45% of the playouts began with this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So it seems that black spread its playouts a little more on this move. Maybe it's an indication that it was trickier?
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #62 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:37 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ack, accidentally lost most of this post, so I'm rewriting now. I had previously planned to stabilize in the corner, but I really like splitting black's left and bottom groups, which makes my shoulder hit on the right side more severe. This does leave the S6 slide, but I can manage this. I expect to get sente or points out of this, because black's last move leaves me some handy aji.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Seems to either connect out or split B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . 2 X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 1 b X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #63 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:15 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I found a new trick Fuego can do: it can show a rough "territory estimate". Each point is colored based on how often it is controlled by white or black in the playouts. I don't think it hurts anything if Chew Terr sees:

Attachment:
fuego_estimate.png
fuego_estimate.png [ 370.62 KiB | Viewed 6359 times ]


value: 50.5%

As predicted last time, not too much to say.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #64 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:07 pm 
Tengen

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emeraldemon wrote:
value: 50.5%

As predicted last time, not too much to say.


I assume that implies that it gave the same sequence of moves as followup.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #65 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:43 pm 
Gosei
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hyperpape wrote:

I assume that implies that it gave the same sequence of moves as followup.


Some of the later moves in the sequence were different, but I didn't save them. I should probably have written them in for completeness, but it's too late now.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #66 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:49 pm 
Tengen

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I imagine that this game is a fair bit of work for you, but I ask because I'm curious about how consistent Fuego's evaluations are. Three questions seem interesting to me: [list=1][*] If you run the same position twice, how likely are you to get the same first move? [*] If you run the same position multiple times, how consistent is the tail of the sequence? [*] As you add time, what happens to the tail of the sequence? Does it start to converge so that the later moves match what Fuego would play if you just handed it that position?

While I'm talking about my curiousity, did you have any trouble compiling Fuego? I'm using Ubuntu 10.10 and got some errors when I tried, perhaps access to certain directories? I rarely compile anything myself, and it was awhile ago, so my memory is quite hazy.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #67 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:03 pm 
Gosei
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hyperpape wrote:
I imagine that this game is a fair bit of work for you, but I ask because I'm curious about how consistent Fuego's evaluations are. Three questions seem interesting to me: [list=1][*] If you run the same position twice, how likely are you to get the same first move? [*] If you run the same position multiple times, how consistent is the tail of the sequence? [*] As you add time, what happens to the tail of the sequence? Does it start to converge so that the later moves match what Fuego would play if you just handed it that position?


The two times so far it correctly predicted Chew's response, it played that same move it thought about before. The rest of the sequences have differed some, however. I expect longer times would make play more consistent, but I'm not sure.

By the way, when playing a live game, Fuego does reuse the search tree between moves, but there's no way to save it to disk, so I force it to regenerate from scratch each time. I'm letting Fuego use almost my full RAM while thinking, so the tree is about 3 GB.


hyperpape wrote:
While I'm talking about my curiousity, did you have any trouble compiling Fuego? I'm using Ubuntu 10.10 and got some errors when I tried, perhaps access to certain directories? I rarely compile anything myself, and it was awhile ago, so my memory is quite hazy.


I did have some issues compiling; I don't remember the exact details, but Fuego requires a specific version of boost, and I think I had a slightly newer version of one of the libraries. In the end I think I changed a flag somewhere in a boost header. If you don't have boost installed, that would do it. If you want to try again, I can help debug as best I can. (I assume Ubuntu has boost through apt-get, but I'm not sure what it would require).
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #68 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:08 pm 
Judan
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Rank: 1D AGA
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Kaya handle: Test
I want to see this move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . @ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #69 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:27 pm 
Gosei
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IMO, that shape is a bit thin. I prefer this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #70 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:26 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
I want to see this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . 3 . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #71 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:00 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was SORELY tempted to activate the sequence I posted about last time (psst nobody tell Fuego about it), but that would be really ignoring what I was trying to make. So I'll respond locally. If my opponent takes gote to fix his shape in the bottom right, then the mistake will have punished itself. The reason I'm taking the hane, which originally felt too aggressive, is that the ladder is mine. It's worth risking ladder-breakers and such because it lets me be more aggressive against the black group on the right.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #72 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:35 am 
Gosei
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OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


value: 51.0%

In previous playouts, Fuego was trying the hane underneath, so maybe it just recently decided this was a good move? It was initially even more positive about this move, rating it at 51.4%, but it eventually lowered down after more playouts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 9 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A few notes about other comments:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . a . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X b . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As for topazg's move at "a", it considered it a tiny bit (550 playouts), but didn't like it that much. The other question is whether or not it sees the sequence Chew wants to play. I'm not sure: It looked at "b" 4327 times, compared to 148,108 for "c" and 1,063,404 for "d". It seems strange to me that Fuego was most concerned about "d", because that looks like aji-keshi to me. And it also seems to me that pushing at "b" is better for chew than descending directly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 What Fuego expects
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 What Chew expects
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . a 2 X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 1 b X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's obviously the cutting point at "a" and the big endgame of "b" in Chew's diagram. One difference is that descending directly seems more sente, maybe just leaving those two stones for aji, but I still think Chew's diagram is preferable.

All that said, the cut looks quite big, and Chew will have a tough decision on whether or not to respond on the right.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #73 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:04 pm 
Tengen
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I actually suggested that move because it's a ladder breaker for the move fuego just made. Without it, the cut seems a bit, premature?
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #74 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:20 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like I said, I played allowing the cut because the ladder doesn't work. If I can isolate the cutting stone, I have an opponent's weak group near a ton of potential territory for me, and the right-side black group's not looking all too stable, either.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #75 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:28 am 
Gosei
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@Emeraldemon
Sorry if I missed the answer already, but is Fuego capable of laddering stones? (Given its decisions come from random playouts...)

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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #76 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:42 am 
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Loons wrote:
@Emeraldemon
Sorry if I missed the answer already, but is Fuego capable of laddering stones? (Given its decisions come from random playouts...)


I don't know about Fuego, but most MCTS bots have special-case code for ladders. But this is one of those things that is extremely easy to get wrong when implementing a bot, or get it to work only in some cases and not others, etc.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #77 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:04 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


value: 51.1%

Favored sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 7 9 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X 8 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Here are the top moves it considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black's considerations
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . c . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a: 73%
b: 12%
c: 7%
d: 3%

@Loons: The documentation is pretty sparse, it doesn't say anything about ladders one way or the other. Grepping through the source I can find some code that seems to involve ladders (there's a CheckLadders function anyway), but I don't really feel like figuring out what it does right now. I spend enough time reading c++ for my real job :-|

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I played Q11 and asked Fuego to think again, and it immediately imagined this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . O X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O 1 . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After about a minute it decided it didn't like that sequence, and started trying other moves for black. So whether or not there's special ladder code, it's clearly capable of reading this ladder. For whatever reason, it just thought pulling out that stone is bad for white. It didn't think very long about it, only 0.6% of playouts on Q11. Notice that c in the considerations diagram seems like a ladder-breaker move, so I do think it was thinking some about that idea.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #78 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:11 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Dunno if the cut was actually worthwhile, but I'm fairly convinced I won't die locally.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #79 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:39 pm 
Gosei
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OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


value: 50.7%
A slight decrease.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As expected, Fuego isn't going to play out the ladder. They say "beginners play atari", but I think this is a good one, since it helps fix black's shape. I don't have time for too much analysis unfortunately.
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Post #80 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:30 pm 
Oza
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emeraldemon wrote:
...
... Here are the top moves it considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black's considerations
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . c . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a: 73%
b: 12%
c: 7%
d: 3%
...


For :b35: did it consider any plays around :b1:, which would create the alternative ladder shown? If so, how did it expect White to react?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc "d" connects at 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . 2 1 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . g 9 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . f 8 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . e b 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 0 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 7 c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


Last edited by ez4u on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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