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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #61 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:42 pm 
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KGS: emerus
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OGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #62 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:50 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . 5 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . x . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oh, phew. I considered this result satisfactory for black.


Edit : I misplayed at X, thinking a move in the future. May I change it to the game move?

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #63 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:54 pm 
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KGS: emerus
Tygem: emerus
OGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I made my decision to save this group without reading much. I'd hoped to have more aji on the outside than I do in reality. The main thing that I missed is the f12 net. It's a better capture than I expected.

When I changed my mind to cut, I was expecting black to cut as well. I was aiming to make his shape on the outside worse or hoping that he'd give me this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O 3 5 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering that the f12 net gives him more thickness than I expected. It would be insane to play that way.


Last edited by emerus on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #64 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:00 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1378
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks.
I'm being a bit daredevil playing this sente, albeit in my own moyo.

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #65 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:05 am 
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KGS: emerus
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(Mis)calculated decision or a blunder?

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #66 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:09 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm51 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wonder if emerus is beginning a reduction (play sente before living) or if I've misread. I do feel a bit slow shoring up this influence.

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #67 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:12 am 
Judan

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White b16 is good timing before living (white can cut in sente to make some aji (or a heavy group?) but can't capture anything by my reading) as it's a ko threat for both and indeed bigger for black so shouldn't be held in reserve for a ko.

And yes my first comment on this game is focusing on the fine detail of technique and ignoring the much bigger issues. :)

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Post #68 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:24 am 
Honinbo
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I wonder if :b45: = (a) is better at :b1: instead?
Directly at :b1: is also sente, but B seems thicker this way,
and the extra liberty at (a) matters (for B):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . a X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Only move seems :w1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #69 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:30 am 
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KGS: emerus
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OGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm51 Black: 0 , White: 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Touche! That answers that question - not a blunder. White really wants to resist - but (despite black's horrendous shape) fails.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X 4 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 3 5 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . 2 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X 9 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting black to take q9 outright but I can see why he wants to stop white from sliding in. Question is, does he spend another move defending? For some reason, I had this diagram in my mind. :b1: defends the slide and then takes :b3: in sente. :w4: captures to clean up ko-aji while it's still sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O 5 X O . O X . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems like the real game continues to be quite a coup for black.

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Post #70 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:39 am 
Honinbo
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emerus wrote:
Touche! That answers that question - not a blunder. White really wants to resist - but (despite black's horrendous shape) fails.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X 4 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 3 5 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . 2 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X 9 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
How about -- still seems good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 4 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . 2 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hmm, :w52: = :wc: seems gote to me. :b1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . W . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #71 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:45 am 
Judan

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@Ed:

EdLee wrote:
I wonder if :b45: = (a) is better at :b1: instead?
Directly at :b1: is also sente, but B seems thicker this way,
and the extra liberty at (a) matters (for B):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . a X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . b O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No, you lose the semeai when white plays at b. Black can't be so greedy. In fact I was wondering if white can omit j18 and extend at b and win the semeai but a non-thorough read says no he loses by 1 liberty that way (and even if you win it if black can capture j17 in sente it might not be so bad for him were there not nasty cuts left on the outside. With j18 white wins it easily.

EdLee wrote:
How about -- still seems good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 4 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X . 2 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


That's bad for black as white lives easily. Black wants to humiliate white into a submissive life with k19, white wants to resist and live more efficiently. That's why take the 2 stones is locally sente: capture the two stones at e17 is a better way to live. Of course black could tenuki it to play the very big q9 as white won't e17 yet as too slow, but then white can cut black's wall and start to mess around with all black's bad aji there and if he captures something then he doesn't need to play k19 to live (and if black defends at e17 then white gets 2 moves with his cutting aji and only if he fails to capture something needs to come back to k19 to live.

This is my first feeling for the correct shape to deal with the cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X 1 2 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X X 3 5 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Last edited by Uberdude on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #72 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:50 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm51 Black: 0 , White: 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Slowing down again)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm51 fig 1, White's offer?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O 4 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

cf :b53: @ :w54: , :w54: @ :b53:

However, I think I can tenuki and that this is the best tenuki. Even if playing at :w54: myself is the correct move, I think the time has not yet come. Also now I think white may make :w54: black sente again.

Edit : I intend to play J4 as a way of using thickness at a distance, (hopefully).

_________________
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My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

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Post #73 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:32 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w1: tenuki
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a , . . . . . X . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Loons wrote:
I intend to play J4 = (a) as a way of using thickness at a distance, (hopefully).
Of course (a) is a big point, but W has to deal with the :wc: group probably right now.
Otherwise, if W tenuki, then :b2: is quite painful for W.
W may take :b2: himself.

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Post #74 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:48 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m51
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B B W W . W W X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O a X W . W X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X W W X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X W W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X W X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
The net result of all the :wc: stones is W made a few points (W still has to play (a) to kill the 2 :bc: stones).
Whereas B gained massive thickness and sente to play :b53:.
Globally, the game seems quite good for B.

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Post #75 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:09 am 
Honinbo
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Uberdude wrote:
No, you lose the semeai when white plays at b.
Could you show the best sequence for B and W after :b1: and :w2: ? Thanks.
I probably missed something, but I got B ahead by 2 libs:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 7 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X O 4 3 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X 5 X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 1 X O 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #76 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:23 am 
Judan

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@Ed
5 is a good move, but this 8 for white is better for libs: white makes the eye and black can't approach from the left and wins the race. And if 9 tries to break out white can answer and black can't gain liberties.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 9 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 7 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X O 4 3 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X 5 X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 0 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #77 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:41 am 
Honinbo
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Uberdude wrote:
this 8 for white is better for libs: white makes the eye and black can't approach from the left and wins the race.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 9 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 7 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X O 4 3 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X 5 X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 0 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hmm...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 7 X . O 3 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O 6 O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X O 5 O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O 8 X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 O 4 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #78 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:05 am 
Lives in gote

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I resign. Black took advantage in every exchange. The problems obviously started from :w18:. Black did owe a move on top and should be attacked but my shape was extremely poor. I was trying to be severe and thought contacting would be cool but the calm keima or 'a' are the "only way". Black c16 was just icing on the cake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . 8 a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The local loss was significant but white could play on without rescuing those stones immediately. :w32: to :w42: is the kind of dirty play I'd make in a timed game, but in hindsight, it was somewhat disrespectful and against the spirit of this game format. Sorry. :oops:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm41 Trying to make a mess of things. :b43: is the only move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Good game Loons.


Anyways, I read the entire game out and analyzed for possible traps and mistakes for black and here's what I came up with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Impossible
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 4.31% chance of winning
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Post #79 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:01 pm 
Gosei
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Thanks for the game. I think I must have overplayed a little on top, I'm interested to see EdLee's and Uberdude's analysis.

Actually I'm really worried about how thin black is on top considering white's move made miai for life. Should I have played 53 at M15?

If you want another game let me know.

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Post #80 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:19 pm 
Honinbo
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Loons wrote:
I think I must have overplayed a little on top
Should I have played 53 at M15?
Hi Loons, maybe you under-played on top ( :b31: );
your :b53: kosumi-hit was also my choice. But I dunno. :)

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