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#236 emerus vs Loons http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10441 |
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Author: | Loons [ Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | #236 emerus vs Loons |
(I guessed even)
Good game, emerus. Open book, database, nigiri, 6.5 komi. I'm a bit out of practise (actually someone else picked up that username) and consistently KGS 1d. I really want to find and examine my current weaknesses. I really don't want to play microChinese, but I really do want to see if emerus will deny it. Specifically I kind of want to try this as a way of pressing my first move advantage:
Actually a few database searches seem to suggest this whole idea is a mistake. |
Author: | emerus [ Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Hi, have a good game Loons.
Are there any formatting tips that make diagrams and posts easier to follow? Recently, I've been taking some lessons and reforming my play. I'll investigate my style by first identifying my instinctual/conditioned moves and then analyze and apply my lessons in order to find stronger moves. For the opening, I try to play simple patterns and stick to what I'm familiar with. I do try to avoid specialized openings where I am out of my comfort zone. So I am glad we're going to avoid the usual Chinese fuseki. |
Author: | Loons [ Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
I wound up here. I think a frequent failing of mine is "trying to get something" too quickly (which tbh mini/micro chinese does successfully). Instead I want to do this with a feeling of 'waiting'. I don't think emerus can eg. make a white Chinese because of my enclosure (if things go this way anyway). |
Author: | emerus [ Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Black's choice. From experience, I expect that his style is d15. |
Author: | Loons [ Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
I think Go Seigen's Way of Play for the 21st Century had something on this position, I hope it comes up (and I can find the book...). I think white must play on my side of the board, and I can think of how I can (slowly) play that to my advantage. |
Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Probably the most played position in my games.
I've played a mix of a-d, but my natural style tends to be a or b for territorial and drawn out games. Previously, I've been trying to expand and play for more frameworks but I am considering just embracing my opening preferences and staying consistent. I get a lot of conflicting advice on which approach to use; should you practice your weakest strategies or become solid in your own style of play? In this game at least, I'm going to stay in my comfort zone until the middle game where I will try applying new ideas from my lessons. |
Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Still "waiting". I think emerus could either attach or pincer here. Against the attachment, I may take up a position on the left. Unless I am gripped by the urge to play a short avalanche. Against a pincer, I should be happy to move into the centre and clarify what should be done on the right. Edit: Waiting time is over, this is avalanche country. |
Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
I study a high % of current games and click through almost all others. This pincer is being further developed and incredibly common currently. I've always been drawn to it. So yeah, again just playing comfortably in the opening. |
Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
An unterritorial move, I feel inconsistent with playing the split on the right. I am happy to get a secure group in the centre and probably get something like f3. |
Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
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Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
All things being equal, I would prefer top or to get an attack top : conversely what emerus wants is a stable position on top. My first feeling was 'a' rather than the joseki 'b', attempting to get the corner while still leaving white unsettled on top. However, a database search suggests the following is joseki here, with somewhat the same effect.
cf eg.
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Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Blacks move forced me to think. While f16 is vital because it effects shape and thickness for both sides, black usually makes the d16-d18 exchange first. I tried exploring the why's but I'm way out of my depth with theory so I gave that up. Instead, I read out the move that isn't possible for white if black plays d16 first:
Pleased with myself for guessing (or remembering) one professional line of play. I moved onto the next line and failed horribly.
Owch. is a natural follow up but my first instinct of is a bad move! Moving on to the more simple response for white, I came to two simple diagrams that I would potentially play in my live games.
This is simple. I would consider it in my game and be uncomfortable after . Where is white's territory going to come from? If I pincer, I give black potentially four corners. But I don't see any mistakes for white either so it's probably not bad for white. In my actual game, I would panic in order to avoid that diagram and play this:
And this diagram sums my style up perfectly. I don't know how to describe it but it's probably just greedy and jealous. It doesn't seem to be playable at all but I would like opinions on this diagram. Anyway, I searched my database to learn correct way to play my first instinct move so I will avoid these diagrams to play that. edit: lol, erased diagram where I gave black two moves in a row |
Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Top side for me ! I hope I get enough sente for a forcing move from my shimari on the right, too. I think his plays on the second and third line and mine on the fourth are broadly making this novelty good for me. To reply to a second line move in the corner after my forcing the connection seems unthinkable. |
Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
So, I couldn't guess this move in a real game and resorted to looking at a database. This is the sequence I came up with.
It seems like black will get a sizable wall when he jumps ahead of white in the push/crawl battle. |
Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
After = , the result seems very good for Black. = has completely lost its meaning. = also seems like wrong shape ? Isn't it better for W to atari directly at (a) ? The exchange ( - ) seems good for Black.
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Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Well, I found this joseki on josekipedia, however I am diverging from it here. The plan is to take an extension with in sente and then get an extension from thickness / second wing for my enclosure at . From there I want to aim at invading bottom left to maintain parity in corners ; make some kind of sabaki bottom right and try and win a moyo game. Not sure how to continue around 'a', maybe 'a''s fine.
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Author: | emerus [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Black is compromising instead of fighting. I'm very satisfied locally. Black doesn't have much continuation in the area but he kind of needs both an extension on the top and at r12 but locally, it looks like white has strong follow-ups.
Defending the top looks really slow.
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Author: | Loons [ Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
(Finalized comment edition) As planned : I will try and gain some perspective before my next move, though. Edit In an attempt to This relatively comparable position that arises:
In a similar vein:
Compared to the fig 1, white gained about six points and some aji on top at the expense of top being sealed. Cf. fig 2, white gained about 6 points at expense of sente; perhaps a shred more invasion aji on top. Black's shape on top is worse though not hurting for liberties. I think an extension on top is comparatively urgent, though ignoring an approach at bottom feels a touch unneccessarily desperate. figs 3 & 4
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Author: | emerus [ Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Possible moves:
As I mentioned before, starting a fight with g16 would be my over-the-board move. I'd play it relatively quickly to conserve time. That is not an issue here so let me break down the position.
Now, my logical first step is to determine which of these is the largest. I will identify my choices for each area and then attempt to judge them. Going in reverse order of my instinctual judgement. (Top moyo>Right>Corners>Bottom) I will dismiss the lower left corner and approaching on the bottom(a) outright.
This way is better for black. Black's moyo is solid and large. White has some cash and the chance to attack black on the bottom. I usually over-estimate the depth of moyos in the center of the board but even considering that - I estimate black +4-5. I wonder if this is actually an accurate estimate for players who are stronger at reducing frameworks?
Worse than the previous diagram.
I spent almost two hours on this position. Mostly about the first two diagrams. I really want to play out the game following at r6 as that style of game is more appealing. I am often fighting because I'm pessimistic in judging my position. Should I temper my pessimism and try to play these uncomfortable positions I keep considering? That might be the best way for me to try new ideas. |
Author: | Loons [ Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #236 emerus vs Loons |
Well! The best laid plans of mice and all that. I think emerus will either leave this group heavy or not extend from the splitting stone on the right : Both not bad for me. Locally, I wonder if I have a device:
Also there is some kind of shape problem here
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