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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:29 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 107
Liked others: 32
Was liked: 3
DGS: 9k
Hi, Shinkenjoe has agreed to play me.

I'm about 10k, I just won a malkovich and I want to win again! :razz:

@Shinkenjoe: have a nice game!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I just played the normal handicap stones, because i am the weaker player and everything unorthodox should favour my opponent.
I want to keep it simple: keep connected, cut white in parts :lol: let's see how this works...
I'll explain my thought-process as necessary as i'll think it's necessary (this sentence is terrible, could anybody please give me a better idea?). When there are questions, ask me then i'll try to find a good answer. I'm already nervous about any hidden comments.
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Offline Shinkenjoe
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:25 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 90
Location: Pfaffenwinkel
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 12
Rank: WBaduk 8k
Wbaduk: shinkenjo1
yeah, have fun!

Let's see what 5 stones are worth.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


They are worth a lot, especially the fifth stone, as I can't really play for the center. I'll think I'll have to play super aggressive, but I need something to target first, so normal opening and aggressive middle game.
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Offline ikkyu
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:51 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 131
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 3
Rank: 17-18k
Beginner question:

Note: I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . a . X . . . |
$$. . . b . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:48 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
ikkyu wrote:
Beginner question:

Note: I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . a . X . . . |
$$. . . b . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

I've heard 2 theories on handicap games as black when you are approached and have 3-7 stones.

The first is that you should take advantage of your stones' influence to be aggressive. The best move is a one-space low pincer to try to force white to take the corner or else be run all over the board. If white takes the corner then you use your outside influence and invite white to try to steal the bottom from you. At that point, you attack.

The second is that you should play conservatively. Not afraid to fight your opponent, but also keeping things simple. In this case 'b' would be the correct move and you should try to play a normal game as if you have no handicap stones. The logic here is that as long as you don't make a big mistake your opponent will be unable to overcome your advantage.

Style exists even in handicap games.

I have read that with 8 or 9 stones (or when your opponent approaches on a side where you already have the third star point in a 6 or 7 stone game) you are supposed to kick the stone and force your opponent to make a narrow base while you claim the corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 5 . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . 2 . . |
$$. . . 4 . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:51 pm 
Lives in gote

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Was liked: 45
With :bc: in place, White doesn't have enough room for two eyes, so Black can hope to get more profit from attacking than from playing calmly at "a" (I think that playing at "a" is better than playing at "b," by the way, because of :bt:).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ Y . . . a . X . . . |
$$ . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

Other good ways for Black to attack here are these:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

That said, Black is not obligated to play locally. Black has very good ways to tenuki on a large-handicap board. The most common way among professionals is to play here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

The second most common way is this (an unexpected move, isn't it?):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

The third most common way is the following ("a" instead of :b2: is almost as common):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
---------------------[/go]

For a lower handicap game, White won't have trouble getting eyespace for his stone. Because of this, Black would do better to either pincer (for instance at :b2:) or play "a" or "b":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . b . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, just as before, Black can simply tenuki ... and keep tenuki-ing to his heart's content:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This can be a very fun way of playing handicap games--and I'm speaking from experience. :)

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:59 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 45
moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 5 . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . 2 . . |
$$. . . 4 . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]
In additional to :w5:, White commonly also plays the following moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . 1 . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$. . . . . X . 1 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Tenuki is also an option for White, but it's not advisable. White will face difficulties after :b6: or "a":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm5
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 2 a . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Shinkenjoe
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:56 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 90
Location: Pfaffenwinkel
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 12
Rank: WBaduk 8k
Wbaduk: shinkenjo1
Wow All those comments.

My move must've come unexpected. I sure had a hard time comin up with it. *pats himself on the shoulder*.

This post by Shinkenjoe was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, otenki, The Intrepid
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:20 am 
Honinbo
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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GD Posts: 312
ikkyu,
ikkyu wrote:
I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . a . X . . . |
$$. . . b . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]
For beginners and even at kyu levels, it's no problem to reply at (a) or (b).
It's your follow-ups that matter.
The moves and the mistakes that decide the game will come later -- they're not (a) or (b).

This post by EdLee was liked by: Bonobo
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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:55 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 107
Liked others: 32
Was liked: 3
DGS: 9k
wow, so many comments. hopefully i don't miss a crucial point. No, actually i hope there IS an important move and i get to discover the truth after i have won.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i don't want to allow a base too easily. that's not the "keep it simple" me, but the "cut white in pieces" me.
i think so early this IS still simple.

should all these hidden comments be directed at my first post? it's working: i'm nervous. and can't wait to see what they say.
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Offline Shinkenjoe
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #10 Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 90
Location: Pfaffenwinkel
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 12
Rank: WBaduk 8k
Wbaduk: shinkenjo1
Quote:
.... after i have won.
You want to play another Malkovich after that one ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Why does he choose somethinmg complicated? I dont know. So lets make it more complicated.
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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:39 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 107
Liked others: 32
Was liked: 3
DGS: 9k
Quote:
You want to play another Malkovich after that one ?

Probably, but i meant: Once i finished you :twisted: , i get to read all the hidden comments and absorp the assembled wisdoms. :shock:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

in the past i played on the 3-3 instead of my :b4:. But this leads to white getting stronger while i struggle for life.
I was tempted to play at 3-3. At least i would have 5 more stones on the outside, but i don't think i should have to use it that way. I'll play normal, not afraid.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

( For beginners. ) When W double approached :bc: with :w3:,
the 5-5 point (a) and the 3-3 point (b) can be considered Miai.
When B takes (a) with :b4:, (b) becomes very big for both B and W.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . b . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]
Allowing B to take both (a) and (b) is very good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: tenuki
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]
So Variation 1 above is a possible continuation from the real game at :b4:,
and the result is simple and good for B.
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Offline Shinkenjoe
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #13 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:48 am 
Dies with sente
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Wbaduk: shinkenjo1
Quote:
Once i finished you
Dream on!

And take this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:09 am 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which is the wider side?
first i thought that both sides were equally wide because both sides have the 4-4s.
Now the difference is :b2:. i think when i strengthen the bottom side it is better because the right side has already some support.
Now with the board (first i didn't look at the board, just imagined it) i think it is definitely the right direction: when the white tries to live, :b2: is a kind of attack helping against :w1: and :w5:. Haha, nice.

This aside i think it is possible to tenuki here, but i don't understand why this should be better than to cut immidiately. (Often this doesn't leave enough option once one is commited, but at this point i don't see a better option)
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:14 am 
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lesenv,
lesenv wrote:
i think it is possible to tenuki here,
Tenuki for B or for W? And when, exactly -- where is "here" ? Please show a diagram.
lesenv wrote:
i don't understand why this should be better than to cut immidiately.
Who cuts where? Diagram, please.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #16 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:21 am 
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( For beginners. ) :w7: is forced; then, (a) direction and (b) direction can be considered Miai --
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
One possible continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H
Post #17 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:25 am 
Dies with sente

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EdLee,
:b6: cuts off :w3: from :w5:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As to where else to play, I have no clue, that's why i went with the cut. But probably:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a are big points, b is big, too. and more it pincers the white group.

When stronger players tenuki, i sometimes think that there's a mistake. Here i even don't know where this will go if i play at a point at a. This is too complicated, i can't even *guess* the next 2 moves. not to speak of *read*.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #18 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:21 pm 
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lesenv,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . x 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For :b6:, B has two options to block : block at (x), or block at (y).
Each one is not a cut; each is a block.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #19 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . d . . X y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . x 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) For lesenv's comment about other options for :b6: instead of blocking at (x) or (y),
B also has (c) and (d), and other options.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re:
Post #20 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:00 pm 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . x 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For :b6:, B has two options to block : block at (x), or block at (y).
Each one is not a cut; each is a block.


Given that white can connect to both stones with one move on the 2-2 point, I think it's arguable that black is cutting.
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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