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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #21 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:58 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Flexible move to probe black and to prepare an invasion on the lower side. What's your opinion about 'a' instead?


I think that "a" would lose the thread.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #22 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


How do you respond when your opponent plays nothing but light stones? Ask them if they're willing to commit

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #23 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:22 pm 
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That was my first thought. :)

Edit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The attachment ( :wc: ) would have been too painful, for one thing.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #24 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:00 pm 
Gosei
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I. would play M3 now as white, clear my throat and nonchalantly talk about flexibility.

Of course it's painful to play M3 when you could play... D11 or something. I was tempted by P11, but that's fundamentally heavy (sacrifice or not) right?

I didn't want to just stand up (P7) because I assume black will end up picking up N4. Thus. M3.

Edit: O11 and grin dumbly.

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Offline Pippen
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #25 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I do not want to commit now, so the marked stone is another light move.

@bill: When you commented earlier that 'a' would "lose the thread"...did you mean that 'a' was not a good move?
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Offline yoyoma
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #26 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:31 pm 
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It's an interesting game. I find myself confused how to play against a bunch of light moves like what white has.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #27 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
@bill: When you commented earlier that 'a' would "lose the thread"...did you mean that 'a' was not a good move?


I meant that I think that it is inconsistent. I don't think that you can regard the previous exchange as kikashi, and if you don't follow through it can become a losing sente.

OC, that could be because it is a losing sente, anyway, or another move could be at fault, so that it would be best to abandon the right side and cut your losses.

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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #28 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think that the most desirable plan, now, would be to push through between the :wc: stones and attack both White groups. The danger is to end up with floating stones that get attacked themselves, while White makes territory. It would also be desirable to prevent White :ws:, which would make good shape with previous White stones.

The least desirable plan would be to capture the stone on the right side. I venture than none of us would do so.

This is a play that takes a good bit of thought. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #29 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:17 pm 
Gosei
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I see no purpose in some of these last few moves by White... "playing lightly" by itself has no meaning.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #30 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:42 pm 
Gosei
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@Araban
Surely he means to sacrifice stones in exchange for useful influence, or we concede him better shape as Bill says.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #31 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:55 am 
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This can't be right for white, he's just going to let us have territory and thickness? I don't see how these stones of his are doing anything... How do you make sabaki when we're just thick? It's like firing a pistol at a tank

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Offline leichtloeslich
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #32 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:32 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I think that the most desirable plan, now, would be to push through between the :wc: stones and attack both White groups.

That's why my first instinct would be here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But it seems vulgar, making w top stronger and, as you said as something to avoid, it leaves cutting aji behind.
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Offline Pippen
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #33 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White fixes its left hand side to make a shape that is not easy to attack. What do you think is the situation? Is it still an even game? SE says White by 59 :P.
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Offline paK0
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #34 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:49 am 
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Pippen wrote:

What do you think is the situation?


I think someone took a peek into the hidden tabs XD

This post by paK0 was liked by: Bill Spight
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Offline Pippen
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #35 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:52 am 
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Well, I had this move in my mind before anyway^^. Besides, I like it to be a game without restrictions, so that players can learn what/how stronger ones think.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #36 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:17 am 
Judan

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I think black's last four moves might have been mistakes as white's stones don't look as stupid as I'd like them to now. Nevertheless this hane is nice.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #37 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:12 am 
Honinbo

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Pippen wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White fixes its left hand side to make a shape that is not easy to attack. What do you think is the situation? Is it still an even game? SE says White by 59 :P.


I actually thought that Black would play here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I do think that after :wc: in the first diagram, White has an edge. However, Uberdude's hane is huge.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #38 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:45 am 
Judan

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I too would have chosen the hane below like Bill, but Pippen chose a different move for us. :)
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Offline Pippen
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #39 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:56 am 
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Was liked: 31
KGS: 2d
@uberdude: Sorry, I took leichtlöslich's choice, but after re-checking, it was hidden, so maybe not meant to be an actual offer. So let's continue with your and Bill's choice then.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X b . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My move is yet again: light. If I just extend I'm heavier. My move also kind of sets up/supports a later invasion at a,b or c from the distance. I do not like to invade early, because early invasion means early outside influence for the opponent which is a bad thing if your invasion gets sealed in or semi-sealed in. Mostly that aquired outside influence is more valueable than the invasion points and takeaway points. I like White's position so far, I think it's still an even game, considering that I not only did split, but leave the split stone alone for a while.

p.s. Does someone have CS or Zen on a decent machine? What would they have played instead? How is the position evaluated? Would be cool if someone could give the bot's evaluation on the respective positions.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Post #40 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:23 pm 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
I too would have chosen the hane below like Bill, but Pippen chose a different move for us. :)


I give you the credit. The hane was my second candidate, but I had not thought the position through. leichtloeslich's thought was also my first, but I didn't see how to make it work.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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