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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #81 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:14 am 
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Is Ed treating this as a teaching game or is he actually trying to win? He is probably several ranks stronger then me, but even if its a handicap game, giving black influence from 4 corners and then playing tenuki to start a second weak group seems to be asking for severe punishment

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #82 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:09 am 
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paK0 wrote:
Is Ed treating this as a teaching game or is he actually trying to win? He is probably several ranks stronger then me, but even if its a handicap game, giving black influence from 4 corners and then playing tenuki to start a second weak group seems to be asking for severe punishment


The saying is that in a high handicap game White's job is to make it close. :) White's job is also to give Black problems. That is appropriate whether the object is to teach or to win. They are not mutually exclusive.

Now, my approach to high handicap games is not to give Black influence and then erase it. But, IMHO, Ed's invasion, :w41:, is entirely appropriate. Leaving weak, even killable stones and groups around is necessary for White in high handicap games. Only us women and children in the fort, I used to say. ;) If Black can kill or mount a strong attack, more power to him or her. But if Black can do so, why is White giving a high handicap? ;)

Edit: Unhidden.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #83 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:18 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm44
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Bill keeps telling me to divide and conquer. So, instead of jumping elsewhere, I really only considered this move.

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #84 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:39 am 
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I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #85 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:53 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D


And who doesn't like being quoted ;)

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #86 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:35 pm 
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paK0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D


And who doesn't like being quoted ;)

Perhaps we need WWBD? bracelets now

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #87 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:42 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
Perhaps we need WWBD? bracelets now


I prefer "What Would Lee Sedol Do?" WWLSD!

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #88 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:52 pm 
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SamT wrote:

I prefer "What Would Lee Sedol Do?" WWLSD!


The answer is always: "Something crazy"

WWBD is actually a cute idea, and since I don't have a signature yet :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #89 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:00 pm 
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You know how sometimes when you turn your back on your students you hear them giggling about something, but they stop when you turn around? :lol:

I look forward to reading the remarks later! :shock:

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Post #90 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:17 pm 
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I was looking at :black: (a) and :black: (b), instead of :b42: in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
The variations from :black: (a) or :black: (b) looked pretty good for B.

( Local time: Sat Nov 8, 2014. 1:16 pm. )

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Post #91 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm45
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time: Sunday Nov 9, 2014. 11:54 am. )

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #92 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:16 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm46
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I considered playing C11, but this seemed to me an opportunity to play elsewhere with what I believe is a stronger threat. Assuming White defends at C2 I can come back. If instead White ataris at D3, I connect at D4 and threaten to turn and/or cut. Maybe I'm thinking too small?

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #93 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It appears that Aidoneus does not yet appreciate the value of :w1:, which provides a base for White and aims at reducing the Black framework. That is mainly a question of experience. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Compare that diagram with this one. :b1: strengthens the Black framework and still leaves White without a base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, my first impulse is the inside hane. But that leads to complications and this is a 6 stone game. :)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #94 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:24 pm 
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Hmm, :b46: is big (big point for W, too),
but locally B can do better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Local time: Monday Nov 10, 2014. 1:24 pm.

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Post #95 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 1 . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time: Tuesday Nov 11, 2014. 1:15 pm. )

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #96 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm48
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


A double knight's move to keep my groups connected and White's separated. While I'd like to get in C11, R18, S6, and B13, J5 seemed far more urgent to me. I did briefly consider peeping at G2 before coming to my senses. :)

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Post #97 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:11 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time: Wed Nov 12, 2014. 1:11 pm. )

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 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #98 Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X 1 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Being consistent, no other move considered.

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Post #99 Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:20 pm 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm51
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O 1 , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time: Thur Nov 13, 2014. 09:20 am. )

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 Post subject: Re:
Post #100 Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:57 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X 2 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O 3 , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


One zokusuji deserves another, I guess. I wonder what Ed has in mind.

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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