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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #141 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:39 am 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I believe my opponent's next move will be to hane around my stones. As a result, the fighting here will become vigorous and dangerous. I can see no sequence that guarantees my escape, but I did find an interesting option that would allow me to sacrifice these stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Large top-side secured at cost of black securing right side
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 4 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . W 0 8 3 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . B 9 . 5 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 1 7 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If black attempts to hang on to everything with :b5:, then:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Net gain for white: W+R
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 4 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 5 3 0 8 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 9 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 1 7 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


We'll see what my opponent does. There are many possible variations and so far I haven't predicted a single non-joseki sequence in this game.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #142 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:11 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


We're probably approaching the final showdown stage. I hope I did not overlook anything essential, but it's too late anyway :batman:

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #143 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:01 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 9 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Recently, I have been trying to go back to the fundamentals of go. Ladders, nets, cutting, connecting, liberties, life, death, etc. So, before I proceed in this fight, let's count all of the liberties on all of the groups involved:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O 4 X X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X b 3 X 2 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . a 5 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O 6 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Group 1 has 5 libeties
Group 2 has 5 liberties
Group 3 has 4 liberties
Group 4 has 4 liberties
Stones 5 each have 3 liberties
Group 6 has effectively 10 liberties
Stones 7 each have 4 liberties
Stone 8 has 3 liberties
Stone 9 has 2 liberties
Group 10 has 5 liberites

I was once taught a general rule - in every fight, pay attention to the groups that have 4 or fewer liberties because:
Groups with 1 liberty can be captured on the next move
Groups with 2 liberties can be forced with atari on the next move
Groups with 3 liberties can be pushed around on the next move
Groups with 4 liberties can be brought down to 3 on the next move
But groups with 5 or more liberties cannot be immediately threatened with capture - they may be dead, but they won't be captured

For example, if I play the cut at 'a', black will need to give the right-side stone more liberties, otherwise I can force it into my wall on the next move. The group may have 3 liberties, but me taking one away is sente.

Obviously Group 2 is the one most important to me, but it has 5 liberties. My opponent cannot immediately threaten to capture it. In the same way, I cannot immediately threaten to capture Group 1, so I don't yet have a way to force a response there. Group 6 is my wall, that is where I am running to because it is so strong; I have no worries with that group.

So, what about the other groups and stones involved?

Group 3 has poor shape. It is not directly connected to any group, so if I play a cut my opponent cannot directly connect his stones to the stone I cut off. A move against Group 3 brings it down to 3 liberties. The only viable moves are the cuts, because otherwise my opponent connects and gains many liberties. I am looking at possibly playing the cut at 'b'.

Group 4 is fairly safe. It is connected to stone 8 by a ladder and to the star point stone because of the shape formed with stone 8. Black cannot successfully attack Group 4, so I shouldn't worry too much about it.

Stones 5 - these are the stones I have my eyes on the most. Both with 3 liberties, so if I cut directly the next move will be atari. Unfortunately, I don't see how this will work if black connects solidly on the next move...

Two options for atari, neither works.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Option 1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 7 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 5 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 6 . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 0 3 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 8 1 X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . 9 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Option 2
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 6 5 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . C W 7 4 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . B 0 8 1 X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . 9 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Or... wait! How many liberties does that black group above my two stones there have? I count only 4. And the one below has just 3!

Is this move to increase my own liberties really sente against both?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . a X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . c X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 1 O O X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b X X X O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It is, but, sadly, a move at 'b' protects against both threats...

Then again... no. It couldn't be. Could the crude atari at 'c' really be the game winning move? Could keeping my group at 2 liberties actually be the answer to winning this game?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . 9 X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 5 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 7 4 O O X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 3 X X X O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . 6 8 O . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


At 4 liberties to 3 liberties, I win the capturing race.


However, after all of that, then I need to be worried about my wall. Thankfully, the black group cutting it off is even weaker than my wall. And I have yet another wall to push that group into.

I think this is playable.

I think this is winning. :tmbup:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


This post by moyoaji was liked by: perceval
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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #144 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:18 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 7 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 9 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The connection at P11 may look more straight-forward. However P12 reduces one more liberty of the "inside group" (and also limits their "action radius") which seems relevant in some of the subsequent variations.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #145 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:44 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


For observers:
My opponent again surprises me, but there is a reason I didn't show this variation: it doesn't work for black.

The reason is that I am the only one with ko threats. I have two local ones, and I don't see any move that white has on the entire board I would respond to. So I don't see how I lose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 First threat at 'a', second threat at 'b'
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X a X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 7 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 8 O X 6 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O 9 0 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This now became very easy. I will no longer have a weak white wall - I will just connect straight up. While he may be able to use his ko threat to live with the center group (and I'm not sure he can), after this I have no weaknesses and can focus on using the aji of the lower side group to either live or reduce black.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #146 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:10 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
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Rank: EGF 4k
Your triggers are obviously more acceptable than mine. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The funny thing is that I had planned (let's say: hoped for) exactly this sequence when playing :b83:. I still see no way to capture the M12 stones after :b93:, which would mean that the w "inside group" is captured. OC if I missed an essential trick and exactly M12 gets captured now, this would be quite funny...

My other concern was that w plays the wedge move L14 in between. This way, he can still sacrifice the inside group but cut off the "left side" (G14 stone) more easily.

There is still the possibility (among other interesting possibilities) that G14 gets cut off in the following. I would then have to try to reduce the white area from below as far as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #147 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:29 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2493
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
As mentioned earlier, it's wonderful when both sides think they're getting the better of their opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #148 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:35 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Well, let's see if this next one holds up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 7 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X 6 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


For observers:
Just as planned.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #149 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Trigger again accepted.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 7 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 8 O X 6 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Captured: :w3: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 4 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 7 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 8 . X 6 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O 9 0 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


For observers:
Quote:
OC if I missed an essential trick and exactly M12 gets captured now, this would be quite funny...

Yep, this ko was the hole in my sequence ;-). I obviously have a weakness in considering kos and hopefully will find such things in future games. If I played P11 instead of P12 I think that in some variations I would lose by one liberty (will try to check that again later).

White has internal ko threats which can not be ignored, thus it will get tough. I will try to threaten to enter the top side and thereby staying connected and alive. But I will take more time and sleep over my first ko threat...

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #150 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I accept your trigger. And I have another one for you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O X O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


For observers:
I have decided that black has absolutely no ko threats I would respond to. For this reason, I play this ko threat, because I don't need 2 ko threats and this one puts black in worse local shape. The only threat I saw that was moderately viable was this peep:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O 3 1 . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O C C O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 2 C O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


But my follow-up at :w4: is sort of harsh, and I can easily run my wall back to my other group. So I'm not concerned.

L11 is my next move. No matter what move black plays, I will take his 3 stones.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #151 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:42 am 
Oza

Posts: 2493
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
moyoaji wrote:
I have decided that black has absolutely no ko threats I would respond to. For this reason, I play this ko threat, because I don't need 2 ko threats and this one puts black in worse local shape. The only threat I saw that was moderately viable was this peep:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O 3 1 . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O C C O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 2 C O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


But my follow-up at :w4: is sort of harsh, and I can easily run my wall back to my other group. So I'm not concerned.

L11 is my next move. No matter what move black plays, I will take his 3 stones.


While I suspect moyoaji is thinking of a particular passage by Kageyama about just connecting the ko and allowing your opponent two moves in a row, I don't think that's right in this case: if white has two local threats, and black doesn't have any, white could always respond to the biggest black threat knowing that there's nothing to worry about because of the local threat, and black gets less in compensation than otherwise. White had better be sure he's responding to the biggest threat, however.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #152 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:30 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Well ... the last sequence was probably a bit embarrassing for me :oops: - however the show must go on! ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


On a second glance the last sequence was less disaster than expected. Even if I lose the ko, my upper right side is now relatively safe (last but not least thanks to P12...) and is still somewhere between 18-20 points.

I could try to play a ko thread e.g. at lower left corner - however if I play two times there, white would play two times in the center (finish off the ko and then maybe around J15) and then the whole center is likely to become white. This looks bigger than the lower left corner.

With my move I get a Ponnuki (provided that white finishes the ko) and it seems there is a realistic chance to get my center stones somehow connected and alive even without the connection to the right. In this case the game would be still quite ok for me.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #153 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:47 am 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Don't worry, I have a feeling that some of my moves with the P8 group were equally as questionable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This was another ko threat I had considered my opponent would make, but didn't think they would. The reason is that taking the stones is pretty much my only move. If I were to save my other stone, black can simply take my stone and the ko is pointless. So it is not actually a ko threat - it is just forcing me to capture his stones.

Black will get a ponnuki, however, so we'll see where this goes.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #154 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:01 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I finally got my ponnuki. In my Post #132 (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=185624#p185624) I made a score estimation regarding the border territories which was more or less balanced and did not have changed much since. While white got around 6 points with the capture someone told me that a ponnuki counts as 30 points. Therefore I must be leading by about 24 points now :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #155 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:01 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So if my opponent plays this correctly, I don't believe I can kill his group. I must not let it live in sente, though. I want to come back to my group on the bottom. By my count, if I make that bottom group live, I'm ahead by about 34 points. If it all dies and I don't reduce black at all, I'm only up by about 2 points. So at the bare minimum I must reduce black to pull ahead. But if I can make it live, I've got this game won.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #156 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
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I was on a hike today (springtime is finally going to happen here...) and will need a bit more time for my next move.

I was expecting a move like J15 in order to make it more difficult for my center group to get alive. Now I can play J15 myself - and if he continues to defend his territory I can play e.g. H12 and at least live easily but in gote.

However - if I just count the seemingly secured territory so far, the situation is as follows:

white:
upper and upper left side: ~ 50 points
lower left corner: 15 points
center sequence with ko fight: 7 points

with komi that's about 78.5 points

black:
- lower right side (with presumably dead p5 stones): 50 points
- upper right side: about 18-20 points
- left side (invasion group): around 10 points

Therefore black would still have a tiny lead - especially there's still potential to get a few extra points in the center (a big endgame move would be e.g. on C8 which is also reverse-sente).

Since moyoaji also should be able to count and probably doesn't want to lose by 3.5 points or so, I feel a bit suspicious about the position.

- There may be still some aji with the "dead" p5 stones left.
- Even more worrying - I'm not completely sure if there is no trick sequence with my upper right side, especially after my genius sequence ending up in establishing a strong white group just sitting nearby.

Therefore I have some homework to do before my next move.

- Is it even possible to live in the center in sente? Maybe there is some sequence involving a sacrifice which forces white to defend the territory more heavily and let me live thereby. This would be a really great result.
- I further have to check carefully the security of my upper right side.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #157 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:44 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My plan is to simply play J15 and H15. If white defends J16 and H16, my group should be alive even after tenuki (if w plays a I have the capture c; if w plays b I will atari on d and play e afterwards). Therefore, I can play elsewhere e.g. c8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm111 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O O O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . a X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . e c d b X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White can tenuki H15 but I will get some endgame at top side for compensation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm111 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . a 4 . b O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . d O 1 O O 3 O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X . 5 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . c . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After :b15: w has to play (a) to prevent some disaster (G17). With (b) I have some sente endgame, where the corner gets cut off and w will need to capture S17 in gote. Instead :b11: I can also imagine that there's some aji for reduction at (d) in combination with the peep (c). I'm not yet sure about my favorite play and will wait how w responds.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #158 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:55 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Busy week, but I did not forget this game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . 9 O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I debated for a while about this move. Should I do something harsh against the black group, or let it live? In the end, I decided on this calm reply.

I am only ahead slightly, but I will be ahead by a lot after I play on the bottom if my calculations are correct. I believe I have found a way to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . a . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This move, I believe, threatens to make miai of 'a' and 'b' by either letting me connect under or live along the side. So, if black makes eye shape with H15 on the next move, I will play :w1: on the bottom and see what he has to say about my group being alive.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #159 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:20 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Sorry, my week was also quite busy so far. I will try to reply more regularly again.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . 9 O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Unfortunately, H15 seems not sente - at least I can not find a big sequence after white ignored H15. OTOH, C8 or D8 is a very big reverse-sente (because w would threaten to cut off my invasion group and at the same time disconnects E9).

Now, that E9 is more or less connected it seems realistic to either make live with the J13 group or connect it downwards, even after the tenuki.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #160 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:02 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
It's alright. No need to rush.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black's move here was unexpected. I suppose he was afraid I might be able to use the aji of C8 to make some sort of double threat in fighting over his group. That might be possible, but I think his move was premature. With one more move, I think his group could be alive locally.

Before I try to kill his group, however, I'd like to know if I even need to. If my group lives here on the bottom, I think this game is in the bag for me. I don't see where black would make up these points.

Let's find out!

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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