Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
#248 amatterof vs. Kirby http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11241 |
Page 3 of 3 |
Author: | Loons [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
I'm still going to say yes. I would investigate C17, the jump and the knight's move. Best case scenario: White's stones only look kind of stupid. |
Author: | Kirby [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
His move is too annoying to ignore - I have to answer it. The common sense reply is here:
But the marked black stone seems *sooo* inefficient. So I was trying to think of a more active way to reply. But attaching seemed to allow white flexibility, as described earlier:
This was frustrating to me, but I remembered something that I learned in the Yunguseng Dojang from In-seong. He calls it "1-2-3 reading". Basically, you read a "normal" sequence. Then you find out it doesn't give you a result that seems good enough. Think to yourself, "what was my opponent's response to my 'normal' move?" This is the next candidate move to consider. So in the diagram above, after I attach, seems to be a natural response by white, which brings me to a position that I don't like. So since I don't like him to play , I will play there myself. It still protects the stone. I feel black stones are still inefficient, but at least this move puts more pressure on his stone than just capturing, which puts no pressure. |
Author: | amatterof [ Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
First, the good: I feel happy with D10 and Black's response. C9 doesn't put much, if any, pressure on D10, meaning that I'm still free to play where I like. I was much more worried about a black play at D12 which would force me to decide early how to treat D10. Now I can regard it as simply a probe or light reducing stone. I also feel like after C9/D10 the left is now not quite as important from a direction-of-play standpoint, since I got a low response from Black. Black still has some ways to build a moyo there, especially if White makes a mistake, but it doesn't seem as scary to me any more. Now, the bad: I don't like my original plan anymore. I think I was overlooking something important:
The problem generally seems to be that White is continuing to play low stones. I tried to fix this with D10 and D13, but the rest of the sequence is all low. In some cases, I could think about playing at A (another low stone), to put pressure on the black top group, but since D10 and D13 are weak too, this isn't really much of an attack. On the other hand, playing at B (trying to play high), also looks pretty slow. So, I went back to the drawing board. From what I wrote above, (I think) I know 3 things:
A play at D13, however, ignores points #1 and #3. It tries to build more on the left, where I was never going to make more points (especially after C9). Instead, I'm back to thinking about F16. It's oriented along the top, which seems bigger, it's a high stone, and it keeps me from investing more around the light D10. This sequence seems pretty natural:
Comparing this diagram to the previous one, , , and are all as they were before, but is higher than White-3 in the previous diagram, and Black hasn't yet been able to play in the center, which both seem like good things. At this point I'm leaning towards instead of A, because I'll want to keep Black's top group as unsettled as possible to make it harder for him to turn the whole left into points (and less likely to play at B). It leaves more aji behind, but I can fix some of that by coming to and . This is a bit thin, but I think I'm ok with it. This line of play also means that Black gets a shimari in the lower right, but because g3 is low, the bottom also doesn't seem that interesting to me. I would probably play C, D, E, or F next. Of course, Black might choose to try to still build the left by playing at B, but I think this also helps me fix the aji of playing , and I don't see D10 being surrounded in one more move by Black. As a side note, I find it's a very help discipline device to force me to write out these explanations for my moves. It keeps me honest. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
To be honest, I didn't think about it much. But the top seems bigger than the right. With the two marked stones, neither black nor white can get a ton of profit the left:
So let's play on the top, instead. |
Author: | amatterof [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Wow, I did not expect this move. It means I really don't have any clue what Black's plan is, since this move is pretty inconsistent with the idea of building up the left side. That said, it's a key invasion point in the White framework that I sketched out in my last post, and it calls out the defect in the knight's move, so it makes some sense. On the other hand, I can't help but feel that Kirby has given me 2 potentially weak groups to aim at. And, that attack will occur in an area where I played first, so I feel like it should be favorable for me. Now to find a way to make that a reality... Here is the long list of main ideas I explored:
After playing out some more variations, I've next eliminated C, D, and E. C violates the rule against touching a weak stone, and that tends to show in the play. E similarly helps out a weak stone and just helps Black develop the upper right. D creates my own new weak group that I'll have to handle. I'd rather wait until I've built up more strength to come back and play a move like this. I looked at lot at F, and originally thought it was a good idea, but ultimately concluded that it doesn't put much pressure on either Black stone, giving Black time to settle both. That leaves A and B. What worries me about them is that if Black ignores and supports H17, I feel I have to find a way to kill D15 on a large scale. To have a chance to do so, I pretty much need B.
(If I play 3 at A, then Black can just take another big point (like B), and White feels inefficient.) After however, I am not convinced Black will die. If he lives, then I have a bunch of thickness in the middle of two strong Black groups. At a minimum, then, I need to make sure that I leave Black floating rather than living and surrounded. This will be an intense fight. Black might take a different path, though, and I looked at these possible other responses:
Black at A seems most likely, but also seems like a good time for me to play G15, and hopefully I can get profit on top. Once G15 is in place, a White play at L17 looks nice. Black B feels like a bit of an overplay, since I can play C16 now. If Black plays C, I'm thinking of blocking at E18. So many complications... |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Kirby wrote:
To be honest, I didn't think about it much. Well, there you go. Really, Kirby. THINK! Avoiding plays like this could be worth as much as a stone. Quote: But the top seems bigger than the right. Well, let's look at the top.
In the top left, lets Black catch up in the number of stones, two to two. However, it makes a good play. That is enough to make it questionable, and, early enough in the game, almost unthinkable. Also, what about the relation between the stone and the top right corner? There are seven spaces between them. That is too far for an extension. Black can expect a pincer against one of his stone in the top left soon if not immediately.
If you are going to play on the top side, this four space extension is normal. Black aims at a further two space extension later on. is not such a great play now. Quote: With the two marked stones, neither black nor white can get a ton of profit the left:
This comment reveals too much of an emphasis on territory (i. e., profit). It is true that White can treat lightly. In fact, he has already done so. But can Black treat his approach stone in the top left lightly?
is a dual purpose move, combining attack and defense.
The same is true of here. The left side is urgent, in the sense of urgent points before big points.
Perhaps is better than an immediate pincer cum extension, but that is something to think about. |
Author: | Kirby [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Seems like an easy move to respond to. I still have the weakness at 'a' to aim at, and his marked group can still become weak:
After moving out, he can't seal me in, and it's hard to really attack the stones strongly. The left side is pretty much neutralized. And I played first on the top. I think the flow of the game is going in my favor. I lost a little bit in the bottom left, I feel - he got a lot of territory. But with these last few exchanges, I think I'm catching up. I expected a harder game at this point since he said he's 3 or 4d on KGS, but so far, it seems not that bad for black. He's probably good at middle game, though, so I should keep watch to avoid any traps. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
A thoughtful play. |
Author: | amatterof [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
OK, with this move, things seem to have calmed down a bit again. I don't have to worry about the complicated life-and-death status of D15, since it's clear Kirby intends to run with it. G15 is following my prior plan. Since I consider both D15 and H17 to be weak groups, it's important to keep them split. This move tries to force Black to pick which group to support, while I attack the other one. I can see the following likely responses:
If Black plays either A or B, I can sacrifice C13 to fix my corner shape, nicely, for something like this:
Here, I've got a good 14-18 points in the corner and have fixed the knight's move defect. Even better, Black has an annoying weakness at A that will nag him if he tries to jump to B. I probably wouldn't activate it just yet, but it's good to have. (However, I might jump to B before playing , just to see Black's response.) If Black plays C, then I can return to playing out the normal joseki, and now I have an easy answer to whether to extend or connect with .
Now Black has to choose between A and B. A play at A seems urgent, and I suppose Black could try to sacrifice H17 to enclose the corner, but I'll then have sente to approach the bottom right, so it seems ok. Also, it's nice that even a play at A doesn't completely eliminate the aji from C13 and D10. If Black plays D, then I can get a good attack going on the D15 group.
I expect C. It's the only way that the D15 group makes sense. |
Author: | yoyoma [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
White never considered a? I agree that the left is not interesting, but then he jumped to making a move on top. It doesn't seem like he considered the corner.
Here I have no idea what I would do as white, it feels very awkward. It looks like something that happens to me often -- I extend on the top and expect my opponent to do something with the left side stone. But then he plays on the top also. |
Author: | Kirby [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Lots of interesting possibilities here.
I feel like the number of possible strategies here is significant. Something like cutting at 'a' might be too aggressive immediately. But there is the benefit that, if I can somehow get white's last move to become a part of a floating group, black will naturally get territory on the top side. It might be too soon, though, because white might counter attack. Moving out with something around 'g' or 'f' is also interesting, because the aji of cutting around 'a' remains. There's also a move like 'e' which would defend my group, and maybe still allow me to cut. On the other hand, if I split around 'b' or 'c', it makes his group on the left weaker. If that's the case, if he defends it, it's possible I could cut in sente. For example, if I could somehow threaten to attack his left group in sente so that I can cut and force him to defend the corner, I could attack his stones. It's somewhat of a wishful sequence, but I can dream up something like this:
Like I said, wishful thinking. But anyway, maybe if I could read this out more in detail, I could somehow get his group to be running, and make territory on the top. It's a bit dreamy, and I haven't read it out enough to make something like this a reality - if it's even possible. But it'd be quite nice if I could manage to do something along these lines. ... If I read it out, and it's not possible, then maybe I can try an alternative strategy - eg. give up getting territory on top for exchange of pressuring his group on the left. Or maybe for getting some corner territory. Eg., in a sequence like above, he might just give me the corner:
Which might be OK, too. Though, if he sealed me in at the marked point, it's kind of annoying. OTOH, it's a bit naive to think that he'll play , anyway. tl/dr: I feel like I can get something here. But I need to work out the details. |
Author: | amatterof [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Two notes for later: I was just playing (on my blitz account on KGS) and someone else played the equivalent of H17 against me. So maybe it's not as weird as I thought and it's just a joseki I don't know? I guess it's not fair to look it up right now, but definitely something to study after this game finishes. I made it through the bottom joseki without knowing the pattern and without a disaster, so hopefully I'll be able to reason myself through this one too. Pincer-and-split still seems like the right idea, but Kirby's pause makes me think I might have deviated from the standard play. We'll see what happens. Second, in terms of my previous post, I'm now thinking my diagram for responses at A and B was slightly wrong. is pretty small for this early in the game and might be gote (if Black chooses to leave the shape defect), so I should probably come straight to attack the H17 stone instead. With more strength in the middle, I might be able to turn it into more clearly sente later. If Black wants to fix his shape there right now, I'd be happy to take another free fuseki move. They key is that I got in, in order to fix my own shape. That said, I still expect Black to play C17. |
Author: | Kirby [ Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
|
Page 3 of 3 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |