Life In 19x19 :: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

I usually see White's lower right corner --
the one closer to White, on a real board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W From White's POV $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Similarly, if I'm receiving a 3-stone handicap,
I leave the same corner open --
White's lower right, on a real board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ From Black's POV $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, for an online game like this one,
both players are looking at the same board POV.

Related: for a :w1:

on a 3-4, I believe the pro custom is to face
the "open" side "parallel" to both players (instead of toward the opponent).
For a 3-4 :w1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ {AR Q4 N4 } $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

For a 3-4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ {AR Q16 N16 } $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, because of symmetry, it does not affect the substance of game in any way.

If John or anyone knowledgeable is reading this, I'm curious about its history --
did it start before, during, or after Shusaku's period ?

With the popularity of the Kobayashi / mini-Chinese, I have found it practical over the last few years to take my opponent out of his book with a pincer.

The most compelling pincer is, of course, the one-space low, but it is really miserly. If my opponent ignores it, sooner or later I have to attack :w3:

or the pincer is meaningless. Then I kill, but I end up over-concentrated. So I like the low 2-space pincer.

The curious observer might suggest that by that logic I should prefer a 3-space pincer. That does end up with very nice efficiency if he plays along, but it has a problem in that he can play a natural shimari with :w5:

, and I have no good extension from :b4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...whereas, if he tries it against the 2-space, he ends up with a weakness at 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm, the two-space low pincer. I definitely still want to play back in the upper left. First, diving into the corner would let Black build a wall facing the top and then approach my corner, which is too good for him. Second, this pincer puts less pressure on :w3:

, making it easier for me to abandon it for the moment. However, this pincer also makes me re-think a bit which shimari I want.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A is the most common enclosure, and very tempting here. However, I'd still like to play along the top, and if I get to do that, I'd prefer to have one of the other enclosures.
B is better for developing the top, but because is low, I'm reluctant to play it. It's too easy for Black to later come to C12 or C13 and undercut the corner.
C creates the mini-Chinese fuseki, which also looks to the top nicely. But now Black has a pre-existing invasion into the framework, which makes it a bit less attractive to me. Normally White would want to have the initiative in a running battle between and , but here Black gets to jump first.
D is my choice. It avoids the open-skirt problem of B, while also looking a bit more towards the top than A does. It also can provide more influence later in the game which I might want. That said, it will likely be important for both players to try to get a stone in the shaded area in the pretty near future (but not quite yet), as these are natural 2-point extensions on the border of emerging territories.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My guess is that, because I've chosen :w5:

, Black will play along the top, and I'll get to come back to the lower right corner, for something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 b . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I generally don't think I want to make the a-b exchange (before :w9:

) in this situation, as White-a has little aji and Black-b looks nicely to the center. However, omitting it makes it slightly more likely that Black might block on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black would then likely try to pincer :w7:

, and I can turn to the right side, while looking to the weakness at A later. That weakness might make C11 (as noted above) nicely sente at some point. (To avoid this, :b12:

could be at A, but wedging for White is then also attractive I think.)

Interesting play by Joaz.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 8 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It pretty well squelches the :w7:

plan, as

is just waiting for a fight in the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OTOH, this plan looks OK, with the idea that White will make sabaki on the side. Note that :w5:

hinders the development of the :b4:

and

stones.

Wellll...that is not what I expected. I thought that he made the second approach, it would be low.

I was assuming that we might go with a standard joseki like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...in which he gets solid territory in the corner, I get a stable enough position on the side, and I have sente on a wide open board.

Or I was willing to go into the fighting line like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 9 X 8 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O 9 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 1 4 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X 6 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and black gets a wall that works very well with his tengen stone. But this does not look so good when white already has played at :b9:

in the previous diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O W . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 1 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess that I should infer that he does not like conceding that much influence to me, so he plays high while still attacking my corner.

I wanted to take him out of his book. I think that I succeeded. Now he has taken me out of mine. :scratch:

Now I must stop and think, relying on scraps of joseki that I vaguely remember, rather than stepping through joseki that I know.

Author:	amatterof [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Greetings, all. Joaz and I have agreed to a closed book game under Japanese rules. For those who don't know, I'm fairly new to this forum and to correspondence go in general. (Joaz is pretty much the opposite, but I'll let him do his own introduction.) I've been playing go for awhile, but am trying to use this year to be a bit more deliberate in my studies and to hopefully break through the wall I seem to have hit around the 3d mark. I expect to be most available to play this game during evening hours (US-Eastern). Without further ado, let's begin! Thanks in advance and enjoy the game, Joaz! Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] And one random question I've never known the answer to: In a 2-stone game, is there etiquette governing which corner White should play in first? Apologies if I've picked the wrong one. I usually start handicap games, especially 2-stone games, with a 3-4 stone for at least two reasons. First, these are the joseki I know the best, and they often offer more potential for complications than 4-4 joseki. When giving a handicap, complication is generally a good thing from White's perspective. Second, the 3-4 stone offers White the potential to build some interesting frameworks, including the mini/micro-Chinese and the Kobayashi. I view this kind of fast development as White's first chance for catching up in a handicap game. I don't have a good sense of what to expect from Joaz. I reviewed a few of his previous Malkovich games, and he seems to be a fairly solid player, and particularly has an ability for some deep reading. (Of course, in a correspondence game everyone has the opportunity for deep reading, and I should make sure to take advantage of that opportunity too.) One thing I did notice is that he seems to have some preference for taking influence rather than territory in the opening. Given the handicap stones and my preference for the opposite, I will need to be careful to avoid giving Black a giant central moyo that ends up dominating the game. For myself, in addition to the general discipline of Malkovich games, I'm hoping to focus this game on shape in particular. If I can keep making strong/efficient shapes, my hope is that this will be enough to swing the advantage in my favor when it comes to middle-game fighting.

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:
amatterof wrote: In a 2-stone game, is there etiquette governing which corner White should play in first? Hi amatterof, Greetings. About your etiquette question: I usually see White's lower right corner -- the one closer to White, on a real board: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W From White's POV $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Similarly, if I'm receiving a 3-stone handicap, I leave the same corner open -- White's lower right, on a real board: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ From Black's POV $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? ? ? . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] However, for an online game like this one, both players are looking at the same board POV. Related: for a or on a 3-4, I believe the pro custom is to face the "open" side "parallel" to both players (instead of toward the opponent). For a 3-4 : Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ {AR Q4 N4 } $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go] For a 3-4 : Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ {AR Q16 N16 } $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go] Of course, because of symmetry, it does not affect the substance of game in any way. If John or anyone knowledgeable is reading this, I'm curious about its history -- did it start before, during, or after Shusaku's period ?

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Greetings to all observers, and thanks to my opponent for playing this game. I hope that you all enjoy it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] It is the last open corner. What more needs to be said?

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Greetings to all observers, and thanks to my opponent for playing this game. I hope that you all enjoy it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] It is the last open corner. What more needs to be said? @ Joaz and observers Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If White replies at 3 or "a", . Prevents the mini-Chinese. Just a thought.

Author:	amatterof [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Thanks for the response EdLee. I had never thought about the parallel direction point, but it makes sense. I'll know better next time. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] From a basic opening theory standpoint, this is the widest area on the board. (I had hoped Black would play something other than 4-4 to create another wide area, but oh well.) Currently, I'm actually thinking about playing the Kobayashi along the top, but I think having this move first will be helpful. That's because Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Now, the marked White stone is both the normal checking move against the marked Black stone, and a natural extension from . If I hadn't made the - exchange first, the marked White stone would look a bit odd, and Black might respond more aggressively to it. But this of course assumes that Black plays the normal response of . If Black pincers, I can see two options. First, I could still play the Kobayashi: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Now, in response to the normal Black marked stone, I could try pincering and create a complex fight where the marked stones and - are all running. I could also try playing the marked White stone at D15 and then playing one of the pincer variations after Black slides, but I don't know those as well, and from what I recall they would actually end up helping . This feels a bit overly aggressive, however. Black could easily ignore O17 and come to D15, which would be a powerful play too. My other option (and the one I'm leaning more towards), is to remember that 2-stones isn't that much of a lead for Black, and to play the more standard response of creating a shimari: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Or at A $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Now, if Black works to continue attacking , developing the top is nice for White. If Black instead plays to prevent that development, I can consider returning to the lower left with a better sense of the proper direction of play.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11394	Page 1 of 5

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
I hope that we get the mini-Chinese, a staple of two stone games for over 200 years.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] For observers: With the popularity of the Kobayashi / mini-Chinese, I have found it practical over the last few years to take my opponent out of his book with a pincer. The most compelling pincer is, of course, the one-space low, but it is really miserly. If my opponent ignores it, sooner or later I have to attack or the pincer is meaningless. Then I kill, but I end up over-concentrated. So I like the low 2-space pincer. The curious observer might suggest that by that logic I should prefer a 3-space pincer. That does end up with very nice efficiency if he plays along, but it has a problem in that he can play a natural shimari with , and I have no good extension from . Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...whereas, if he tries it against the 2-space, he ends up with a weakness at 'a': Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	amatterof [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] For observers: Hmm, the two-space low pincer. I definitely still want to play back in the upper left. First, diving into the corner would let Black build a wall facing the top and then approach my corner, which is too good for him. Second, this pincer puts less pressure on , making it easier for me to abandon it for the moment. However, this pincer also makes me re-think a bit which shimari I want. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] A is the most common enclosure, and very tempting here. However, I'd still like to play along the top, and if I get to do that, I'd prefer to have one of the other enclosures. B is better for developing the top, but because is low, I'm reluctant to play it. It's too easy for Black to later come to C12 or C13 and undercut the corner. C creates the mini-Chinese fuseki, which also looks to the top nicely. But now Black has a pre-existing invasion into the framework, which makes it a bit less attractive to me. Normally White would want to have the initiative in a running battle between and , but here Black gets to jump first. D is my choice. It avoids the open-skirt problem of B, while also looking a bit more towards the top than A does. It also can provide more influence later in the game which I might want. That said, it will likely be important for both players to try to get a stone in the shaded area in the pretty near future (but not quite yet), as these are natural 2-point extensions on the border of emerging territories. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My guess is that, because I've chosen , Black will play along the top, and I'll get to come back to the lower right corner, for something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 3 b . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I generally don't think I want to make the a-b exchange (before ) in this situation, as White-a has little aji and Black-b looks nicely to the center. However, omitting it makes it slightly more likely that Black might block on the other side: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 0 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 8 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Black would then likely try to pincer , and I can turn to the right side, while looking to the weakness at A later. That weakness might make C11 (as noted above) nicely sente at some point. (To avoid this, could be at A, but wedging for White is then also attractive I think.)

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Oh, darn! Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Here is a thought, especially in a handicap game. The kikashi may look premature, but it inhibits a White extension on the left side and provides aji if White plays on the top side. And it keeps sente for the attach and crosscut in the bottom left. Hmmm. Well, isn't forced, is it? Maybe just attach at 12 right away.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
This is a curiously calm position. He played a move ( ) that I thought he would not because my previous move made it ~~slac~~ passive. So I'm assuming that he is leaving the aji of for me to worry about, and he plans either a play at one of the sides ( top most likely because he has a shimari facing it, at 'a' ) or a play in the lower left, at either 'b' or 'c'. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . b . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I could attack his stone in the lower left and probably kill it. Or I could play the big side myself. In other words, the lower left and the top side are miai. So I don't have to worry about either of them, even though they are both big. I'm going to play something that works with both of them, whichever one I get. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:
For beginners. Of course, so early in the opening, there are many good moves, including the tengen -- a nice ladder break -- which looks at the board globally, but locally gives less pressure on . Another big move would be around the (a) direction: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Tewari: it's like Black ignored approach and instead took tengen, which is perfectly playable; a_matter_of preference: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . b . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . d . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go] For , White can start a fight with a double approach like (b) or (c), or, White can choose the very peaceful (d). If White jumps into 3-3, this is a possible continuation (joseki) : Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Variation A $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 2 X 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 7 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Then, Black can add a local move at (e), or take a big point toward the (f) direction. If at 3-3, and blocks the other direction, this is a possible continuation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Variation B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 2 . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go] Notice is a nice big wedge for White. For beginners: if we look at Variations A and B, which do you like better for Black ?

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Interesting play by Joaz. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . 8 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] It pretty well squelches the - plan, as is just waiting for a fight in the center. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 8 . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] OTOH, this plan looks OK, with the idea that White will make sabaki on the side. Note that hinders the development of the and stones.

Author:	amatterof [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Tengen?! I wrote initially that I expected a slightly influence-oriented game from Joaz, but never would I have guessed this. At least I know right from the start what his plans are. Still, I'll need to be extra careful to avoid being sealed in anywhere, so that I am better positioned to reduce the eventual center moyo. I may also want to be a bit more careful about my framework idea, as will be well positioned to help later black invasions escape. The goal of not being sealed in is what has driven my decision to play high instead of low as in my previous diagrams. It's harder for White to just play on top and build more influence now. My hope is for something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . d . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Then I'll have sente to pick one of a-d. (Note that in this variation I've made the - exchange, because I think it's even more important to make sure that Black blocks the direction that I want, to keep my high stone strong.)

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Wellll...that is not what I expected. I thought that he made the second approach, it would be low. I was assuming that we might go with a standard joseki like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 4 . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...in which he gets solid territory in the corner, I get a stable enough position on the side, and I have sente on a wide open board. Or I was willing to go into the fighting line like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 0 9 X 8 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...which continues like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O X X O 9 . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 1 4 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...and this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O X X O X 6 . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . X O X 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...and black gets a wall that works very well with his tengen stone. But this does not look so good when white already has played at in the previous diagram: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O X X O W . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 1 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I guess that I should infer that he does not like conceding that much influence to me, so he plays high while still attacking my corner. I wanted to take him out of his book. I think that I succeeded. Now he has taken me out of mine. Now I must stop and think, relying on scraps of joseki that I vaguely remember, rather than stepping through joseki that I know. My next move may be a day or two.

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Author:	jeromie [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
The comments from both sides (and from Bill and Ed) are great so far. I'm going to enjoy following this game!

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Bill, ( Diagrams rotated for space. ) About the atari in this variation: amatterof wrote: My hope is for something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . \| $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . \| $$ . . X . 8 O 6 . 7 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------[/go]` ( For beginners. ) Later, if descends: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ . , e . O X . X O . . \| $$ . . B c X O X . W . . \| $$ . . . d a 1 b . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------[/go]` Then -- If (a), then (b) connects back to . If (b), then has (c), (d), (e) to hurt . Hi Bill, how about the 2nd line atari instead ? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ . , j . O X . X O . . \| $$ . . X h f O X . O . . \| $$ . . . k g 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------[/go]` Later -- If (f) connects, then (g) simply links up. ( heavy. ) If (h) tiger's mouth, then (f) ponnuki, or, (j) fights, or (k) links up.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
My initial reaction is to take him down a path in which he has few reasonable options but to play 2 through 8 like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 X . W 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 6 b 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] ...and then see how important influence is to him. His is a cutting stone, but anything it does is going to be overshadowed by my tengen stone. I still have 'a' for a small but tolerable life if he wants to try to activate C6, and 'b' is a nagging shape issue for him.

Author:	amatterof [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
jeromie wrote: The comments from both sides (and from Bill and Ed) are great so far. I'm going to enjoy following this game! It definitely has the look of an exciting game, and I will be very curious to see what Bill, Ed, and others have to say. I haven't been able to finish a Malkovich game yet to see how others react to my comments, so if there is anything I can do to make them better/more interesting, please let me know.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:
amatterof wrote: if there is anything I can do to make them better/more interesting, Usually people enjoy it if both sides think they're winning.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck
Hi, Ed. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . \| $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . \| $$ . . B . 8 O 6 . 7 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------[/go]` It's true I don't like this for Black. The stone is misplaced. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . \| $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . \| $$ . . X . . O . . 6 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------[/go]` But I would resist like this. After which it gets complicated. See also Joaz's idea.