#72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)

CSamurai · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Handicap placed, which means it's White's move.

Have fun, and a good game,
CSamurai

Hummingbird Cyborg · #2

I hope that we can have a fun game that is entertaining. And I hope to not make any very stupid mistakes, but if I do, I hope that I'm able to learn something from them.

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CSamurai · #3

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Well, here we go. Here's a fun fact for everyone, I suck at handicap games. I mean, epic level horridness at knowing what to do with two diagonal 4.4 stones has always been an issue for me.

Diagonal fuseki, as I understand it, is generally better aimed at territorial play, which the 4.4 doesn't lend itself to. In fact, my general dislike of playing for influence often leads me to bungle any sort of 4.4 opening that I play, which is why I played 3.4 fuseki almost exclusively for the last year.

However, since I've been told I need to step out of my comfort zone, I've been making an effort to stop playing 3.4s and start playing things like chinese again. None of that helps with this fuseki... I have two choices, which I'll try to move through quickly.

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These two, A and B are the two general choices. They aren't specific, but, I can either approach A, and try to roll into a joseki that lets me take sente, or play B now, and let white choose where to go.

I'm a big fan of pressure. Almost all my 2 stone games, I prefer to open with a move near or at A, so let's talk about B first then.

B says 'I don't mind you making an enclosure, I'm going to try to just cling to the lead that having 2 stones have given me. I'm going to let you take the lead, and see where you go from here'. B is what I'd call a 'Passive opening'. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that.

But what does white 1 say? White 1 says 'I'd like to play a steady, territorial game. I would like to make a nice solid enclosure, before attacking your positions, and I believe that if I get a single corner, I can whoop you in fighting, since you need 2 stones.'

Playing a A says 'I'm not going to let you take an enclosure for free. I'm not going to let you progress however you like. I'm here, and I'm willing to contest you, and I'm willing to put pressure on you."

I may be making all this up from nothing, but Go is like a conversation to me, and paying attention to what your opponent is saying in the first few moves is a big deal for me.

For instance, if I play A, and white plays B, white is saying 'I just wanted to see what you'd do, and I still want to see what you'll do, before I play any firm moves.'

A sends the message I want to send. I'm here. I'm going to struggle, and face you head on. And, it puts pressure on white who, usually at my rank, doesn't know how to deal with a handicap player not playing turtle, and simply clinging to the lead that having a few extra stones gives you.

But where should I move, now that I've decided that the approach is what I want to say?

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In general, this pincer isn't great for white, as it leads to..

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O O 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . a O X X 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This result works fairly well with the 4.4 stone to set up influence into the center. While I could play A, it's not without precedent to treat that point lightly, and play elsewhere, so I can take sente to play the open corner.

Still, this isn't disastrous for white, and it's not the best joseki for black's whole board, I think.

So what other options do we have?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . 3 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . c . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm a little stumped on the joseki for this one at the moment. I don't recall whether A B or C is correct. I think it's not C, but a and B look equally crazy to me. White 5 isn't their best move though..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . 3 7 . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 2 . . 6 8 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White plays a or b to settle the group, leaving me with sente, or the other to settle my own group if the influence gained doesn't look good enough.

But, I rarely see the low pincer on a high approach.. Other, more likely moves..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 6 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A simple joseki, leaves white with sente, but also leaves the side unprotected under 3, for threat later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 3 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 2 . 6 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White takes sente, but black takes a very strong side, with a good extension from their own 4.4 Also possible..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 3 4 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 2 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

less balanced with the 4.4 stone. I think I've seen it suggested that black can actually play closer to the 4.4 to invite fighting, but I'm not that strong.

There are a lot more loose pincers and more relaxed moves that white could play in response to this corner, but I like the high approach for the gains it can get me.

I hope people have enjoyed this brief, and doubtless faulty analysis.

CSam

Hummingbird Cyborg · #4

By the way, I don't know which pronouns to use for you. Do you have a preference?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

CSamurai · #5

Do you mean he she it? I'm a male.

What about you, Cyborgian?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now that MHO has narrowed the choices I have, I can choose from a few joseki. I know this one best, and rather like the possible lines, so..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is generally good for me. Black has a good framework on the top, though white has poked into the skirt, you can deal with that later.

White gets sente, but 3 is akwardly high in relation to the formation on the 3.4, leading to me playing around a or b to activate aji there later. The situation resolved, white /should/ play in the open corner, allowing me to gain sente again, either to approach if they play a 3.4 or 4.5 move, or even to play a or b sooner rather than later to continue pressure on the stones..

Let me demonstrate why I may do such a thing..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While I could approach 6 at A to create a nice double wing formation (assuming that white plays the same passive, non pincer sort of joseki on 6) for my upper right corner, it neglects the possibilities of activating my lower left corner first. After 7 white needs to make a move to finish off their group. The traditional B leaves white feeling overconcentrated, but apart from outright running, with the high stone, the group needs the solid fix.

After white responds to 7, I don't really have much need of continuing the attack though, and can easily play at c, further using the lower left to support, so that both my 4.4 stones have extended sides.

If white refuses to leave the weakness up top, I get the third corner, which is clearly too slow for white in a handicap game.

So, I suppose at this point, I'm just waiting to see if white will stick to joseki, or try something radical.

Hummingbird Cyborg · #6

I go by male pronouns. I just didn't know what to call you. Male pronouns it is then.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · #7

CSamurai wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is this really joseki? I've only ever seen 4 in the context of a chinese or mini chinese fuseki, when the extra pressure on the black stones is worth leaving the aji at a or b. It's interesting that CSamurai hasn't considered this at all

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now there's no aji at a or b.

CSamurai · #8

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Redundant

Is that for me to read? I'm assuming no, since it doesn't have my name tagged on it. Just didn't want to miss a question though, so I figured I'd ask.

Redundant · #9

It's meant for observers.

Hummingbird Cyborg · **#10**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

CSamurai · **#11**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe my opponent has made a mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the extension, white can tenuki, yes, but the play at A still remains for a later date. This does, of course, change my plans a bit. I have to assume that after my extension, white will play in the lower right. I believe the joseki my opponent was thinking of goes a little differently, and involves white approaching under an existing 4.5 stone for black. In that joseki, black gets A and white plays the last move in response. Given that, this move seems overly defensive. However, it certainly isn't time to play A for black, the points gained are far too small for the beginning.

As the board stands,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White will likely take a 4.4 or another 4.3 If a 4.4 I will take a low approach. If a 4.3 I will likely take another high approach. Either way I'll approach from the left side of the board, in order to gain support for my bottom left stone.

Hummingbird Cyborg · **#12**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

CSamurai · **#13**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 10 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White is begging me to play A at q3. They clearly want the fight that the taisha starts. Especially since I don't have the ladder to make the taisha work. If you don't know the taisha, and why or where I need ladders to, check out the many many pages on Sensei's. The long and the short is, while normally I play the taisha without thinking about it, simply because I don't feel like, at my level, my opponent knows it any better than I do, I'm trying to avoid playing complexity simply for the sake of complexity. So let's look at some other options.

B springs to mind, because of the principle of one point approaches. If you want to approach a stone, you usually want to approach at either a 1 point jump, or a knights move. Given that the knight leads to the taisha, we're going to discard it. But, given that Black B leads to white C, letting white squish me in the corner like so..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 7 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black survives, but white gets strength radiating everywhere. I'm not sure if there's a better line for black, but the sequence through 4 seems almost predetermined, and quite rough. Maybe this would work..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but it involves a really complex fight, as it procedes..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 3 4 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black lives this way, but white tales strength radiating everywhere in exchange for black living small in the corner.

I've got two corners. They're not secure, they're not even mostly mine, but as corner counts go, I don't need to press for a third. White and I splitting another, so white really needs this corner..

given that I don't want the corner enough to jump in with 1, let's take a look at the other options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

1 seems a bit too close to white's stone. We strengthen white fairly needlessly here. I think possibly 1 is too agressive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The way I'm leaning towards is black p3, allowing white to settle with 2. After that, I can attach under at A to finish up the corner, or pull back to B. I think pulling back to B is too submissive this early, so I'll likely attach at A if white plays 2. If they play somewhere else, I'll have to reevaluate my situation.

So far, I'm fairly happy with the possible outcomes of 1, so we'll see how this progresses.

I've added the move number and the prisoner count to the diagram. Thanks for your patience

Hummingbird Cyborg · **#14**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 11 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

CSamurai · **#15**

Will probably post a move after work or tomorrow before work. Want some time to consider this, but hidden are some initial thoughts.

CSamurai · **#16**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 12 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wrote a rather long thoughts section, as per my usual, but then I left for work apparently without posting it. In the intrest of time, I'll go ahead and make my move, and if anyone cares that much about this very basic move, let me know, and I'll post the 'thoughts' section later.

CSam

Hummingbird Cyborg · **#17**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:wt: is played low, so I decided that I have more prospects for growth by approaching on the left side first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have further potential for influence on the right side with a sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc. Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But that ends in gote and so I'll hold off on doing something like that for now. Besides, I might want to attack those stones later. They are just far enough away from the bottom left star points that it's possible that an invasion on that side later would be possible and it's certainly easier if I keep those stones weaker than if I strengthen them.

Unfortunately, a play around P5 would be on the border of my potential and would help black with this problem. It will be big soon, but it's also gote for now, so I use my sente for a good approach.

CSamurai · **#18**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 14 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . B . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c e . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . d . X . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, today, we're going to discuss in reverse order, because they're ordered in order of my likely hood of playing them. I'm hoping, through discussion, to figure out which one is best.

F: F isn't a bad play, but it runs counter to my desire to keep as much of the corner as possible. More, if white decides to jump out, they can launch a strong counterpincer, which makes the left side into a brawl.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 5 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point, I've written off my pincer stone. This is one option when playing a pincer, take the corner, or take the side.

I find it highly likely that white would just take the 3.3 invasion after the pincer. This isn't a terrible result..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 4 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As long as you turn the correct direction. Turning the other way gives up the bottom side in exchange for the left. The left side is not as interesting as the bottom here.

After 7, white is likely to try to reduce in the J-K 4-5 area, leading to a brawl. Given that I don't think the results from these joseki suit my desires for the area, I'll move on to E.

E, the kick, is what I would call a 'worst response' situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After white 4, black has not secured the corner. He has strengthened white greatly. He has built a very loose framwork over the bottom side. But the framework is weak, the corner is invadable (which I won't cover, for space considerations. But Sensei's has quite a bit about the weakness.)

The worst part about this joseki is that it ends up with white having strong territory along the whole right side. Given that I want to avoid strengthening white this much, I absolutely must not play the kick.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . 5 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2-4 is a common mistake. Black doesn't need to defend 1. They can play b3 in sente if white plays b4 to take the stone. This is endgame stuff, so black can play a different move. After 5 though, white can pull back and solidify the large side for themselves on the left.

Notice how black's framework is deeply invadable, but if white plays correctly, their framework on the left is
fairly solid. Black wants to avoid strengthening white this much. Which brings us to C.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 1 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll be honest. I don't know black's proper answer after 2, because I'm fairly sure 1 in this case is a blatant error. Black likely plays the splitting move at E5, but I find the continuations here.. rather painful for black. If white plays solidly on the bottom..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 1 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . 4 . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black takes a large corner/left side, but we've already mentioned this isn't the direction we'd like black to develop.

Which brings us to B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . 1 . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a very simple, possible continuation. If black plays this way, he solidly takes some of the corner, but black is low, and feels heavy. White 4 plays well with the top group. Life isn't all bad here. After white 4, black has sente, and can take a big move on the right side, but this is little consolation for the lowness of 1.

Which leaves me with A.

This was where my eye was first drawn, and I think it's still my best option. Let's take a look.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 13 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 2 . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notice in this sequence, black has more potential along the bottom. The groups work better together, and feel like one framework, rather than two small groups.

White still gives up a bit of the corner, and still takes sente to play on the right. But this time, without being submissively on the 3rd line, they have better prospects later.

I like the way this looks and feels best, so we'll go with that.

EDIT: I'm trying to write my thoughts as clearly as possible for lower level players to read. Is anyone reading them? Am I writing too much? Should I focus on one or two possible moves rather than deep analysis like this?

Hummingbird Cyborg · **#19**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 15 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · **#20**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 15 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's position makes me somewhat uncomfortable because I am leery of the dual weaknesses at 'a' and 'b'. It seems like the moyo he makes has too many holes. However, I'm not sure I know of a better way, and using stable position on the top left to make a framework is strategically sound imo. Would the following variation be better for W? Does anyone have any better ideas?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 1 . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)

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