Life In 19x19 :: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)

To better compare, let's look ahead a bit. Assuming that neither player wants to give a perfect extension or a double wing for free...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both are certainly playable, which I doubt anyone will dispute. The second option seems to focus more on territory and reduction for black, while the first has more moyo potential. So really, either are probably perfectly fine, direction-wise, depending on desired style. Any other opinions of these two positions?

On why I'm leaning toward the high approach right now, it's something that Shygost said (I haven't been through all the lectures yet.) that with two star-point stones the joseki that I showed works well. Basically, he said that I'm guaranteeing that since I'm giving him ~10 points of territory, I'll get at least that amount back.

Another way of looking at it is that I am buying a stock for $10. My hope is that the stock rises in value, and that I'll make money. My fear is that the stock will lose value, and that I will lose money.

If I played the low approach to his top right, it honestly wouldn't be terrible. But the joseki that I picked, it works well with my two star-point stones. Not to mention that the joseki is influence based and according to my first two moves it keeps everything consistent. (I hope.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Moves I'm considering. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b b . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Those are the moves that I'm considering in roughly that order.

As for approaching in that direction, there's really not any logic that I'm using. When the game gets to this point when I play online, I usually don't approach inside their base like 'e' on the diagram. Then they can pincer me and it's not fun. I really don't like getting pincered either, since I'm not sure what to do when I get pincered.

So, I guess that I want to approach, as in the joseki that I'm thinking about, because I have a friendly stone in the top left. It gives him less incentive to pincer me.

I hope that I made sense.

Author:	SinK [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:27 am ]
Post subject:	70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
I'm taking black in an even game (7.5komi) with Suji and I'll post my first move just as soon as I've worked out how this diagram stuff works.

Author:	SinK [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suju (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Simple 4-4 opening mostly because it's what I'm used to I'll let him choose my next move for me. He plays in the SE or NW corner i'll play a 4-4 in the SW corner since I haven't tried that much and it's always let to really fighty games when I have. If he plays in the SW corner himself I'll play the 3-5 point in the SE like I normally do. We'll see where it goes from there. Good Luck.

Author:	Suji [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
We're playing territory rules, and I've only played under the Japanese rules so it's going to make the game interesting. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Move 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I almost checked the hide tag since it was a new malkovich thread, but I remembered that I was playing this one so I didn't check it. I don't like diagonal fuseki, they scare me. I expect my opponent to take one of the two remaining corners after which I'll take the last corner. I usually play double star points as White, but if he plays a star point then I'll play a komoku just to spice things up. I don't know many joseki so I'm going to go with my gut feeling there. Good luck to you, too.

Author:	SinK [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I like this set up since once I've enclosed the corner I have thickness aimed at his corner (sort of) to help back up an approach followed by a side extension along the bottom. Sorry, I assumed territory rules were the same as Japanese rules. To prevent any confusion then; this game is Japanese rules since if there is a difference then I don't even know what territory rules are.

Author:	judicata [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Good luck to you both. Not for the players: Maybe this will be a particularly good game for asking about/reviewing the basics. Regarding SinK's comment above--I could be wrong, but it seems better to have thickness pointed toward my own position, rather than my opponent's. If Black builds influence on the right (facing left) and White gets a strong position on the lower left, any influence black has will be a bit wasted. I'm not saying the move itself is bad.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1506	Page 1 of 5

Author:	topazg [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
For what it's worth, the primary direction of that last 5-3 stone is along the right edge anyway, so it is still working in general towards (and with) the 4-4 stone in the top right. Looks interesting enough to me

Author:	judicata [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Quote: For what it's worth, the primary direction of that last 5-3 stone is along the right edge anyway, so it is still working in general towards (and with) the 4-4 stone in the top right. Looks interesting enough to me Agreed--if black gets thickness facing the right side from that stone, it looks pretty nice--especially if he can get an extension in. That's why I'm not saying its a bad move. Maybe it will accidentally turn out that way for black .

Author:	Excalibor [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Not for the players: judicata wrote: Quote: For what it's worth, the primary direction of that last 5-3 stone is along the right edge anyway, so it is still working in general towards (and with) the 4-4 stone in the top right. Looks interesting enough to me Agreed--if black gets thickness facing the right side from that stone, it looks pretty nice--especially if he can get an extension in. That's why I'm not saying its a bad move. Maybe it will accidentally turn out that way for black . I think it will be interesting to watch. Now, as I have played the Manchurian fuseki before, if I wanted thickness facing my 4-4 stone, I'd play 5-4, which is so good a bait for luring the opponent into helping you to get that thickness... Of course 5-3 variations are also know, so this can certainly work. However, being ddk and let's hope following the canon (ehem) I would expect white to play on the empty corner and black to enclose the lower right one, so we won't be seeing that anymore, but who knows? To tell the truth, I'm starting to be tempted by these Malkovich games myself... ehem, ehem Edit: made sure players won't read this until the game's over...

Author:	Suji [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Good to see that our game here is attracting attention. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Move 4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it is that territory rules are Chinese and area rules are Japanese? Nothing to report yet, just following my earlier plan. I'm going to have to start posting analysis and plans now. I'm assuming ALL hide tags are off limits...

Author:	topazg [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Suji wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it is that territory rules are Chinese and area rules are Japanese? a) This is exactly the wrong way round b) It's also not quite correct. There's strictly no such thing as territory rules and area rules, but there is things defined as territory counting (your surrounded territory minus the stones your opponent captured) and area counting (your surrounded territory and your stones on the board). As long as you play dame out, the score difference is negligible enough not to worry about it.

Author:	SinK [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] There we go all enclosed. Seems like going with this kind of opening allows white to take the initiative by playing two 4-4 or 3-3 type moves then attacking with his/her/it's third move. I guess if you like playing really aggressively it might be worth sacrificing the security for the sake of keeping tempo as black.

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
SinK wrote: I like this set up since once I've enclosed the corner I have thickness aimed at his corner (sort of) to help back up an approach followed by a side extension along the bottom. I think A > B in the following diagrams Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc A $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	CarlJung [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Aphelion wrote: SinK wrote: I like this set up since once I've enclosed the corner I have thickness aimed at his corner (sort of) to help back up an approach followed by a side extension along the bottom. I think A > B in the following diagrams Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc A $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] You may be right, but without giving reasons it's difficult to see why.

Author:	Chew Terr [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Aphelion and Carl: To better compare, let's look ahead a bit. Assuming that neither player wants to give a perfect extension or a double wing for free... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Both are certainly playable, which I doubt anyone will dispute. The second option seems to focus more on territory and reduction for black, while the first has more moyo potential. So really, either are probably perfectly fine, direction-wise, depending on desired style. Any other opinions of these two positions?

Author:	emeraldemon [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
441/890 for A, 399/764 for B. Win proportion: A: 0.496 B: 0.522 90% confidence interval: A: (0.4918, 0.5525) B: (0.4674, 0.5236) So B actually has a better win % than A, but the confidence intervals overlap, so the difference isn't statistically signficant

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Author:	emeraldemon [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
In my GoGoD, I have 890 games with the top-facing komoku (A), and 764 with the left-facing komoku (B). So A is a little more popular, but only slightly (16% more common). Both seem playable.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
emeraldemon wrote: In my GoGoD, I have 890 games with the top-facing komoku (A), and 764 with the left-facing komoku (B). So A is a little more popular, but only slightly (16% more common). Both seem playable. Does the winning % vary much between them? (not that that's authoritative, but it's interesting...)

Author:	Suji [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
I'm going to have to think about this. I'm worried about his shimari down in the lower right corner. I'm wondering what I need to do neutralize it. I don't like approaching shimaris, since they're powerful. I, also, want to approach his upper right. If I approach the upper right, the approach will be high. With this joseki in mind. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc One possible choice for me $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . 7 , . 5 . 1 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . a . . c b . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] But, the problem with this joseki and its twin brother is that they both end in gote for me, and I really don't want Black to play around 'a', since that is the perfect extension (I feel like) from the shimari for Black. I really need to keep sente if I approach the upper right AND get to 'b' or 'c' before he can play 'a'.

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
To Suji: Suji wrote: I'm going to have to think about this. I'm worried about his shimari down in the lower right corner. I'm wondering what I need to do neutralize it. I don't like approaching shimaris, since they're powerful. I, also, want to approach his upper right. If I approach the upper right, the approach will be high. Could you explain why you prefer the high vs the low approach? Or approach in that direction? What are your main candidate moves right now?

Author:	Suji [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 70. Suji (14k) vs. SinK (17k)
Aphelion wrote: To Suji: Suji wrote: I'm going to have to think about this. I'm worried about his shimari down in the lower right corner. I'm wondering what I need to do neutralize it. I don't like approaching shimaris, since they're powerful. I, also, want to approach his upper right. If I approach the upper right, the approach will be high. Could you explain why you prefer the high vs the low approach? Or approach in that direction? What are your main candidate moves right now? To Aphelion: On why I'm leaning toward the high approach right now, it's something that Shygost said (I haven't been through all the lectures yet.) that with two star-point stones the joseki that I showed works well. Basically, he said that I'm guaranteeing that since I'm giving him ~10 points of territory, I'll get at least that amount back. Another way of looking at it is that I am buying a stock for $10. My hope is that the stock rises in value, and that I'll make money. My fear is that the stock will lose value, and that I will lose money. If I played the low approach to his top right, it honestly wouldn't be terrible. But the joseki that I picked, it works well with my two star-point stones. Not to mention that the joseki is influence based and according to my first two moves it keeps everything consistent. (I hope.) Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Moves I'm considering. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . b b . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Those are the moves that I'm considering in roughly that order. As for approaching in that direction, there's really not any logic that I'm using. When the game gets to this point when I play online, I usually don't approach inside their base like 'e' on the diagram. Then they can pincer me and it's not fun. I really don't like getting pincered either, since I'm not sure what to do when I get pincered. So, I guess that I want to approach, as in the joseki that I'm thinking about, because I have a friendly stone in the top left. It gives him less incentive to pincer me. I hope that I made sense.