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Jika vs Kirby http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16888 |
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Author: | EdLee [ Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:49 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@Jika: Quote: I had the strong feeling I have not learned anything from them. This is possible, but unlikely.Quote: My stones were killed, killed, captured, killed, and it went so fast I could not see why. We can't easily scan your brain while you play Go to visually see whether your neural structures have changed since before you started Go. We must wait and see. If 12 months and 500 games have passed and you remain at the same level as when you started Go, then your suspicion is correct: you didn't learn much from the 500 games. We'll see. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
@ Jika: All I can say is, your moves that I applauded were not, repeat, not beginner moves. |
Author: | Jika [ Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
Other moves I've considered:
Blocking, but my stone loses a liberty too.
Both F15 or H15. I want to say "Don't cut off my D4 so easily", but pushing from there would be an invite to take the side, wouldn't it? I also considered leaving some (well, a lot of) territory to Kirby, like "OK, play there, but I will play elsewhere, like Q17). But, first, I don't think it is a good idea to ignore Kirby (on the other hand, he might want me to follow him like walking a dog). Second, he might maybe place a second stone there and then follow me to attend to the upper left later. Now I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move and 8 minutes on posting. Should I have spent more? |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
My thoughts about , before Jika played. Anyone can take a look.
When I was learning go, I would have chosen the simple jump from the corner (joseki). I would have been willing to sacrifice the stone, if necessary.
When I got stronger, I would have chosen this jump, cutting a couple of sector lines and attacking both sides. Banzai!
Today, for a rank beginner I might suggest this kosumi, securing the corner and planning to sacrifice the stone. I would look forward to the slide at a or the underneath attachment at b. Out of curiosity I took a look at Okigo Jizai. OC, this particular position does not occur in it, but Hattori showed how to attack, and might well have recommended this play.
threatens . If , makes a nice base in sente.
If White tries to capture with - , - rips White to shreds.
If White prevents the underneath attachment, Hattori might try , threatening to play at a. If now White prevents that play, attacks the stone. @ Jika: With practice your time to make diagrams should decrease. |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
@Jika: Quote: I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move... I'll answer your question indirectly:Should I have spent more? Your candidates ( including the actual game move ):
Questions for you: (a) How many of your candidates contact ( for this question, a diagonal hit is contact ) ? Click Show for the answer: 4. All your candidates contact ; 100%. Zero. None of the 3 candidates touches ; 0% would you have asked yourself this question: "To touch or not to touch -- why does it matter ? " I'm guessing no, but I may be wrong. |
Author: | Jika [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
Thank you! @Bill, Ed: I would not have chosen your moves after minutes. Maybe I should not have spent my time talking about bicycles but revisit my move 12 the next day before I played it: I think for me (this is my first 19x19) the idea of cutting off territory / securing a corner is not so familiar. I had the strategy to somehow connect stones (in 1 move). But maybe the next day my mood had changed from "connect them all" to "play secure". I can't tell. I see your suggestions are making much more sense. I don't understand the more complicated fights Bill posted, I often don't understand why a move "threatens to play at a" (because I would not have known that playing at "a" would be desirable, or why). @Ed: I've looked up (Sabaki) what other moves I considered there: J13, J14.
So, those would have been better, at least J14? I played around with them in Sabaki as variants, but - obviously - did not continue considering them. So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember! |
Author: | EdLee [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:11 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@Jika Quote: ...at least J14? For future reference: there are strengths and weaknesses in your knight's move J14:
Comparison: the 1-space jump has different strengths and weaknesses:
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Author: | EdLee [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:21 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@Jika: Quote: So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember! It'll take some time, experience, and effort before the deeper meanings of post64's candidates become more clear to you.My suggestion: be careful how you reached certain conclusions, like those quoted above. Hint: Go back and re-visit posts 64 & 65: the idea of safety was never mentioned. Repeat: be careful how you reach certain conclusions. |
Author: | Jika [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
@EdLee: You are right that, since I know nothing about strategy, I should not draw conclusions from experienced players' moves. In case this was another confusion with Go lingo: I meant "safe" to be like "play closer to stones / areas where I already have some influence; make smaller steps from there; or try to claim a corner instead of trying to connect all my stones on the board, which is more than I can chew on 19x19. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
To butt into Jika and Ed's colloquy: Jika, there is nothing wrong with forming working hypotheses from the play of better players. In fact, it's a good idea, as they can be the basis for programmatic imitation. I.e., not just copying surface behavior. |
Author: | Kirby [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
I debated about playing where I did, and playing here:
The initial point of dividing black and white was to make black choose a side:
Like if black jumps at 'a', I can take advantage on the 'b' area with a double-approach type scenario. But if black defends at 'b', then I can aim to attack the stone on the top middle - it won't be big profit, but it's something in a 9-stone game. So on one hand, Jika's move responds to help the top stone, so I could consider the double approach. But there are a couple of reasons to just answer like I did: 1. If we think about the game as a sequence of exchanges, I'm pretty sure the last white/black exchange gave me a small benefit - I got stronger in the 9-stone handicap game, and the knight's slide doesn't help the black group all that much (it helps a little bit). 2. If I double approach, I'm not really putting black under much pressure. Black can always slide under then:
Black might not do this, but it gives black an easy way out. So, I'll just answer Jika's last move, and treat it as a thank you exchange. |
Author: | Jika [ Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
Hm, bad news for me: My sabaki board (where I try variants) had somehow an additional black stone in a different position.
I'm trying to give my stone more liberties. I think Kirby wants to get the upper left (and will), only, how far will he come towards the middle/right? Do I want to sacrifice the bumped stone? Other things I've considered:
More liberties, but easier to cut off?
Blocking?
Tries to bite off (too) much towards the centre?
Because my imagined stone was there! |
Author: | EdLee [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:37 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@ Jika: Quote: I'm trying to give my stone more liberties. Let's count liberties for and :
Now, let's look at points, very selectively:
|
Author: | Kirby [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
Jika's move is not what I expected. I expected this:
It doesn't mean that Jika's move is not having value. But a lot of time, people might play as above, because it puts more pressure on the white stones. If white ignores, black is putting a lot of pressure on what - there's even that proverb about playing at the head of two stones:
So as a result, white feels inclined to answer - black keeps the initiative, because white is pressured:
Since white is inclined to answer, black has strengthened the stones, and is now free to make a decision - do I continue locally, or play somewhere else? Black can think about it and come up with a strategy. But given the game move:
My white stones have lots of liberties and are not in as much immediate danger. So I have options to consider a different line. So I decided to play somewhere else - the double approach. |
Author: | Jika [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
I've decided not to react to Kirby's move because I thought that my two groups there (upper line) are not really connected (were they?) and would be easy to separate. I assume Kirby wants to extend down from the upper left corner as far as possible, taking the left side. If he has the left and then separates my two groups I would not like it. So, my basic decision seemed to be "cause trouble on the left side or play a connecting move along the upper side?". Other moves I've considered:
This was my alternative move there, closer to my left group.
Direct bump, "you shall not pass!".
Indirect?
Testing the nice white bend a bit. Threatening to disconnect white stones. I like this move a lot, but I think it is daring too. Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two. So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two? I'm taking a high cost to do so. |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:50 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@ Jika: Quote: Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two. Not me. Some people say that. But they don't give the caveats:
Quote: So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two? You mention "connecting your stones on top", but how, exactly ?
|
Author: | jlt [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:46 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
@Ed and Jika : I am afraid I am the person who said that connecting one's stones and disconnecting the opponent is important, but I should have mentioned caveats. Anyway, if Kirby responds to the last move, he will be the one who disconnects your groups, and one of your groups may be "damaged". |
Author: | Kirby [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong, and I don't *need* a response to Jika's move here. From that perspective, I could play elsewhere - approach another corner, or crank up the pressure on the top left. But thinking only in terms of exchanges, answering Jika seems like a net benefit to me - I get a stronger group, keep black separated, and have options to invade reduce points in the top right corner later. Black's move doesn't totally protect the group on top, either, because there are still points to aim for as white:
So I think just keeping it simple, and answering is fine... I do have a 9-stone handicap deficit to make up, but it's still early in the game. |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:03 am ] |
Post subject: | |
@ jlt & Jika: From my experience with Go beginners, it matters very little what you tell them: whether good, OK, or even bad advice; hell, even pros had been teaching "wrong" things, even adamantly, for hundreds of years before AlphaGo showed them what's what's ( e.g. early 3-3 jump-in; 5th line shoulder hit, etc. ). What Go beginners need is fighting skills. That's it, basically. How ? From experience ( first 100, 200, ... games, etc. ) ; some stress Go problems, OK ; finding a good teacher is like the lottery. IMO, most of this kibitz is social ; actual benefit to Jika's Go career ? Debatable. Thus, we're back to: Jika, just enjoy and play. Kirby wrote: There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong A pro might evaluate 's ponnuki at as "dead". ( Impossible for Jika to evaluate either assessment. ) |
Author: | jlt [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Jika vs Kirby |
@Ed, Jika: I agree that beginners shouldn't be overloaded with advice, that's why I am mostly chatting on this thread and giving almost no advice. However, when I was 17k, a stronger player told me that when playing with handicap, I should attack, which meant if possible:
Of course there are other possible moves, like taking a big point, closing a territory, etc. but these kinds of moves are generally clear for beginners. On the other hand, the concept of attacking is much less obvious. Since I found these guidelines useful when I was 17k, I thought I would reproduce them here, at the risk of being misunderstood. |
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