Life In 19x19

MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Page 6 of 11

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Trigger accepted. White plays

After that, I play:

Just came back from an awesome hockey game. It ended with a penalty shot, where the guy took it really slow and simple to throw off the goalie's timing (he said after the game). It struck me as somewhat applicable to this game - I can throw him off by getting into an offbeat game and playing simple.

Anyway this is the last easy move. I have to take advantage of the weakness of the three stones, and I want to preserve the atari over top on the side. So hane is the proper local move. Now the ball is in his court - the upper left corner, upper right corner, and general center area are all very interesting. My moves are going to slow down from here on, as I'll try my best to outplay his middlegame.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Maybe I played the special case joseki move here actually? Should be okay.
I expected black to atari on top first.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Trigger: If 19-14, T14, then I play:
18-17, S17.


So he decided that the upper left was the largest of each possible move - I think I agree. It ended up being that the whole 3-3 sequence was an exchange before coming back. Was it a good exchange? Well, I now have a much firmer grasp on the upper side than I would have originally, but I have to play another move in the corner to take it. It looks like it might be slightly good for him - I get completely clean aji, he gets a ponnuki.

This is the first time that I looked at an empty real board - it's harder to keep track when separate local positions start clashing. I really wanted to make a tenuki that could give me some initiative in this game. I was giving the most consideration to 12-10 cap, 12-11 two-space cap, and atari over at 16-13. The problem with the atari is that it will be answered by a capture that eliminates too much of my aji in the corner - a ko might follow, but he can lose the ko to simplify the position too much. The problem with my one-space cap is that his group doesn't really have to respond to me. If he pushes up on the side, then I'll have to respond to that. My capping move starts to look like an overextension, too far up the board compared to where he's reducing me.

So the move that I really want to play in my heart is the two-space cap at 12-11. It prevents a simple jump into the center, and when he pushes up from the side, it lets me get a sweet double hane where my shape is already helped. The problem is that it's not very ambitious. He can poke a little bit and then come back to the corner - and if I count, he's going to be up by a couple dozen with gentle reductions. I can't completely relax until I die of heart failure, I have to go for more, make him scared of his weaknesses.

So, since I need more points, I'm taking the corner territory. The problem with this is that his next move of pushing up from the side is distressing. I'm going to have to double hane that, pushing him onto the fifth line. The key will be whether I can get in a well timed move from my bottom right group to push him back down, or get him to overextend into a losing fight in the center.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Your trigger suggestion makes me think that someone has misclicked (so to speak). I have not yet looked back at the moves to try check if it's me.

Are you confident about this move? I guess I'm offering an undo.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

My bad! I completely misread 19-13 as 3-19 for some reason. Not a failure of visualization but a failure of reading text - and I was careless with the coordinates on my trigger too. It's harder to keep track of the big numbers :oops:

Sorry, I'll take an undo, and against 19-13 I play 18-17. S17.

Offering the same position if he plays 3-19, I guess. He probably should, because it's huge. If he saves the 3 stones, thinking he's found an improvement, then life will be getting rough. The problem for me is that I can't really allow him to play 18-18 and get away with no weaknesses, even though the center is getting big.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

I can absolutely understand.
That was why I suggested misclicked instead of a mistake - I'm more nervous about accurately translating between numbers and letters and positions than I am about the visualising!


Trigger: against 19(t)-16 I play 18(s)15

Perhaps my opponent is thinking a lot about the large endgame around 3-19 ;-)
I'm very pleased that this episode wasn't game ending - this is good fun and about to get interesting!
Re: this corner, I'm not really sure what's the deal. If instead of the double hane we had played b17-18, w17-13, b16-14, w18-12, b18-17, w18-16 then that would be a special case pattern and a bad choice by me because the direction isn't good enough to justify it. But this way we have effectively played that but black has exchanged b18-13, w19-13. That exchange seems to make me much thicker but I'm not sure it's enough to justify giving the corner back(ish) for the side.
Seems like there's two big places to play - top left and around 15-12ish at a sort of junction of two moyos.. Except I haven't built the right hand side yet..

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted. 18-16 (S16) into 19-16 (T16) into 18-15 (S15).


Two-space cap.

So now the right side is much stronger, but the upper left is still in contention. Because there's more places that are still large, I'm much more comfortable playing this softer move that aims at more control over the game. I'm threatening to reduce his right side around 15-12 and around 13-9, both of which are actively useful for my other pursuits. I have to get something a little extra from somewhere in the next 30 moves or the territory count is going to be bad - and this move sets up the possibility.

I haven't talked about it yet but the left has some possibility of growing too with this move. His outward stones only have two liberties, so sometimes you can atari and semi-net them. If I can lock him out of the top on a large scale then things might get a lot closer. That's why I think M11 is a better move than just knight's move out at 15-12 directly.

Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Curious to see how this cap turns out. The upper left and righthand results seem good for Black, but the cap feels vague. I doubt I could convince myself to not respond directly, but I don't see it as that severe.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Black's move turned my ears a little pink! It looks like an ambitious and creative approach to using all of blacks influence positions together.
Although it does a few things, I'm hoping that it doesn't do them well enough. I'm not sure if it's intended to attack my lower side group but after a bit of reading I'm not too concerned about this. Was tempted to get 11-2 in sente before this move but there feels like a small risk that blacks response could weaken my shape around the centre. I'm confident that I can make two eyes comfortably enough using blacks shape problems on the bottom side or one more move towards the centre. It threatens a centre left moyo but there are two routes in at the moment so I don't feel too worried. Then of course it threatens a fairly large top side although the shape seems a little bit funny for this. This last threat seems the most credible so it's the one I'm responding to. It also feels like an important area for both of us. May attempt a count soon - of course it will be white has x concrete points with small scope for development, therefore I must stop blacks potential reaching this sort of scale. This is not atypical for my games!

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


This was my plan when I played 12-11. I'm avoiding the elephant jump because I don't want to sacrifice any direction. It looks to me like he's locked out anyway - and I'm solidifying some 35 points on the top, with lots of growth potential. I still have some decent places to reduce his right side, too. If I can get in a move at 11-9, I think I'd be well on my way to catching up - not only is the moyo huge, but the ladder aji will be less severe if the center is strong.

I have an itch in the back of my head that there's something that might be better here, though. It's really hard to say what, but I think there's something off with this position. If only I could see, I'd read and read until I figured out what it was.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Counting and technical endgame are absolutely not my strong point but I'll have a go at an approximate count (apologies if any of the forums' technical endgame fans read this!)
There's a large endgame move in the top left that I'm considering even and double gote so not counting any points in that area. There's also endgame in the top right that is slightly more complicated - it feels a bit like my sente because if black doesn't respond to 18-18 then I follow up at 16-18 (I'm not 100% sure that starting at 16-18 isn't better) but then black could answer 18-18 with a ko. For simplicity I'm not going to count points there either.
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest white has 25 points along the right hand side (assuming 3rd line territory from the bottom right corner to the ponnuki shape with a few adjustments seems reasonable.) I'm going to count 5 points for my bottom side group though I might hope for more given blacks problems. A rough 10 points for the top left and a little less than 10 for the bottom left gives around 55 after komi maybe?
Black has around 6 points for the bottom right group and probably just over 30 solid points at the top now.
I'd say I need to pick up a few points as well as stop the centre moyo developing too much - could be tricky.
I think I can expect to come out of some exchanges here in the centre with sente in which case I must choose between a questionable sente sequence in the top right, 10 points double gote and some very tough to score moves in the centre (can't find a move on the left for now).

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)



It's either this or hane. If I hane, I'm not necessarily scared that he's going to cut right away, but that it's going to be easier for him to cut later. It seems like a bad aji to leave, when I could give up 2 points for strength.

I don't think this was the best move by him, by the way. It seems kind of immature, because now I have more definite options with moves on the right and he has less definite options in the center. But maybe it was good timing, to get me to lose two points and then make the aji useless before I can activate it. Very hard for me to know - I'm finally starting to feel my reading ability decrease due to lack of vision. I think I normally give myself visual reminders of the tactical elements when I read long fights that spill into other local areas, and it's a lot harder to integrate other resources when I can't see them rely on immediate recognition of me prior reading. But hey, he's probably suffering the same phenomenon. He has a hard move to make, now. I think I'd play at 11-10 now, if I were him, but that might be totally wrong. Things are heating up!

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


I may be helping black build the centre left but maybe reducing the top side in sente and then hopefully can control the centre left development.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)



Obviously, I have to block. Letting my shape get broken would be terrible. Before AI, the pros used to say that as long as you played consistently with your own moves, any style could win any game. Humans have an extraordinarily hard time proving that any properly coherent play is wrong. I played my shapes specifically so that this cut would be bad, now I should show it.

If he actually cuts, it's looks like it's just going to die. If he doesn't cut, then this push was a bad exchange - never push unless you're going to cut.

I like it. This is what I was talking about when I was hoping I'd just get 30 points out of nowhere. These little exchanges are giving me a better position than I have any right to have. He's still got a hard move to make.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Wasn't 100% how this would go but I think a little more reduction than I hoped. A hanne next still seems to leave cut aji too?

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)



I guess it makes some sense for him to make this exchange before tenuki. I can still cleanly kill his cut, I believe. The walls are walls, if they don't let me play severely then something went horribly wrong. If this lures him into a cut, then good. Once more though, I think he should be playing 11-10 after this, and try to relax into a victory.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Tough choice and I'm still not sure. Keep changing my mind about how much I need to worry about the centre left potential.
This is an imprecise attempt to control the growth of the potential by poking at the eyeless group black has here. Tough. Perhaps black could just give up these 3 stones even?

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)



The moves are getting very hard to make. I think that's well shown by the fact that, as far as I can see, he just randomly attached to my strong stones like a 20kyu. I still have that ladder, so my stones are connected. Does he think I don't have the crucial liberty at 11-7?

I was considering what the best way to respond would be, but I didn't see anything that looked clearly punishing. If I'm really treating my stones as strong, then the consistent thing to do would be to tenuki.

So where to tenuki? 8-19 is huge, but when I was counting I realized he genuinely has significant potential on the right provided I don't play there first. I want to get in a move over there, while the upper right still has some aji of being captured. I was considering direct invasions on the 3rd or 4th lines, but then I realized that it was way too much hassle to attach myself to a group when he's so strong on both sides. So I'm playing the softer move on the fifth line, which is much harder to fight against, and he can back off at 17-10 and be totally fine. I've learned that LZ usually only barely favors the best reduction over the second or third best, so playing safely while reducing is just the better way to control the game. My move is still a very good exchange compared to white getting initiative in this area.

If my move isn't sente then it's close enough for me, because of the followup at 17-11 busting his side and making his shape very awkward. I don't think he has any beautiful sente sequences in the center. I expect that he just wants to simplify the game, and so will respond at 17-10. I'll then have another tough choice, between taking 8-19 at last or doing something more controlling in the center - the semi-net, perhaps?

Author:  jlt [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Author:  MikeKyle [ Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


I like Black's move. Given my weaknesses I can no longer expect so many points on the right hand side. Tempted to respond at 17-10ish but this seems too submissive.

My move is directly loss making (I'm making 2-2 work and that's not small) but I'm hoping that I can reduce black on the bottom side to maybe half an eye in sente. If I'm fairly ambitious this could mean a nice free move worth some points on the left hand side as well as helping trash the centre left potential.

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