Life In 19x19

MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)
Page 9 of 11

Author:  MikeKyle [ Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Didn't expect this ko right away actually. Black must be confident about threatening the centre group. Another interesting development

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Captures: B: 4, W: 2
Mild Overplay. :razz:

I realized what my 4th capture was - his first line stone on the bottom right! I forgot about that one.

Anyway, the problem is that he has too many good ko threats - on the bottom and the upper left - for me to hope he makes some bad ko threats. Oh well, I won't try to make my own bad ko threats first. I'm playing on the third line because if he commits to disconnecting me, then I should get more natural ko threats while I ask him if he really wants me disconnected. It's also a good ko threat because if I played here first there's no way he would tenuki to the upper right. I'm raising the temperature by loosely threatening his bottom left.

The game is about to get very complicated. I've been looking at an empty board for my reading during this last fight, because otherwise it's too hard to keep track of where neighboring local situations interact. When things calm down here, maybe I'll try to play the endgame without the empty board assistance. I don't think I'm very close to losing track of the position.

I bet he plays 3-2 for his next move. It's probably what he should do.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


If black 18-17 then

Kos are hard so please take my comments with a big pinch of salt.
I'm not sure I agree that black was wise to play ko this way. I think just fixing at 16-18 and leaving a potential ko for later made more sense locally. This way black seems to be offering a huge bite out of his only decent territory.
HOWEVER black does have a lot of ko threats and in that sort of position you can start uneven kos like this.
My ko threat isn't big enough for the size of the ko, but given that black started the ko I guess he was planning to answer threats of this size.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Comments only
Being focused on the decision of the ko I forgot to mention: I really like blacks first threat. Initially I wasn't sure he had enough threats but this kind of thing shows he does and shows that I was naive in thinking I could pressure that centre group. If I had answered with the ko too much in mind then I could easily give away a lot here and still loose the ko.
Just a nice move imo

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted. B 18-17, followed by white playing 3-19, or C19.
I then play:

Trigger: If you play 19-17, T17, then I play:

and captures will be B: 5, W: 3.

He takes the ko.
I push as a ko threat.

Well, I got what I wanted on the left, and he's just using up his good ko threats, so now I'll go ahead and make my good ko threat over here. There's no way that I'm going to use this white weakness in any other way, like throwing in on the second line or something. It is technically possible if some crazy ko shenanigans happened in the middle that I might not be able to get this exchange anymore, so I figure I should take it now.

One move I'm getting tempted by is 2-6. It looks like it should be pretty sente, since he made those bad exchanges on the bottom. I shouldn't get too overexcited though, it's important to try to play ko properly.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted so..
W 19-17
B 17-5

Then I play

Trigger: if black 18(S)-17 then..

I knew there was something fishy about this ko! Black could back out now and connect at 16-18 or else then I count at least a 2 step ko to avoid quite a bit of damage. If black pursues this line then I'm confident black still has lots of threats but I should be able to get some good compensation with three moves elsewhere.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Comments only
I don't think I'm particularly doing this Malkovich thing very well. I keep cutting my comments a bit short in favour of getting my move played sooner.
What I meant about black resisting instead of backing off at 16-18 was the following read:
B17-19, w16-18, b19-19, w15-18, b14-17, w14-18, b13-17, w13-18, b12-18, w16-19, b15-17, w18-18, b18-19, w19-15.
However I'm not sure I can't cut through and do better.

If black does back off then I have to work out if this corner is large enough for me to capture the ko. There are ways to work out a ballpark value of a move in a step ko situation like this but I'm quite sceptical of these methods and I think they break down a little bit when the balance of threats is uneven like this. Moves around the centre left are not small

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted. 18-17, S17, followed by white 18-19, S19.

I play 17-19, R19.

Trigger: if 19-17, T17, then I play:

I can't tell if this was a good or bad ko threat for him. Oh well. I'm just playing relatively normal and biding my time. I doubt there's any way I would use a different exchange for this weakness, so it's a fine ko threat.

I'm moving back into college for the second semester - might be a little slow to move for a bit.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger not accepted
So after b 17-19 I play


Black's play suggests that he would play a ko threat and then recapture the ko if I played the trigger move, but I'm a firm believer in playing the board and assuming the strongest move for your opponent. I think blacks strongest move would be to back of and fix rather than play ko so in order to avoid that I should not exchange the ko capture (This is an interesting discussion point actually, I'm sure some people would argue that I should factor in the way black has played.)
I'm of course hoping that black isn't playing this way because he has outread me or because he can see a stone I can't!
I haven't offered a trigger here because I'm not 100% sure if I can do better than I thought and black will back out with 15-18 now.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


If you play 15-18, P18, then I play
14-17, O17.

I kinda skipped reading of this variation when I played my last move, assuming my 5th line stone was strength and not weakness, which was definitely hasty. Now I know that his move is genuinely dangerous in this joseki! I wrote up my findings concurrently while I was reading this move out but lost it all and don't feel like writing it all up again. :cry:

I'll just say that I think the best result I can force is 2step-ko for him, but where he has 7 local ko threats. I definitely should have just tenuki'd the last move, I'm now down in total by like 20 points again :oops:

At least it's a complicated game. This is why you always read out the violent response!

Author:  MikeKyle [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted so w15-18, b14-17
Then I play

Trigger - if b 13(N)-17 then I play

Great (I hope!) progress as planned. Black could hane next and allow me to capture one stone above and get into the territory from the centre I think. That may be the best choice.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger not accepted. After white plays 14-18, I play

The variation he offered in his trigger is a little worse for me than this one. I wonder if he'll accidentally use some extra locals due to misreading here? I realized last night that when he denied my trigger he basically allowed me to skip playing a ko threat, which was definitely wrong.

I believe the correct sequence should be to play w 18-18, b 18-19, w 19-15, b 14-19, and w 19-17 starts a two-step ko where white uses 7 local ko threats associated with the cut at 13-17.

Author:  jlt [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Author:  MikeKyle [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)


Trigger: if b 13-16 then..

Comment to follow..

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted. 13-16, N16, is followed by white 12-17, M17, after which I play:

He did waste the ko threats, like I thought! Also, he disabled himself from going into the other variations, but they were probably worse for white. Only 5 extra locals for him now!

Author:  MikeKyle [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

11(L) - 18

Trigger: if b 11-17 then

Then if b 12-15 or 10-18 or 11-19 then open next hidden text..

Trigger 2
Then I play 19(T)-15

Arg! Big missread during this whole cut-at-16-18 sequence. I didn't realise that black could hane at 13-18! Somehow I only read that if I cut black would have to extend from the second line stone to protect it - I overlooked that he could atari first. Initially I was really frustrated at myself as this is so much worse than the situation I thought I had. My internal win rate (both software and hardware are questionable) dropped from something pretty good to maybe 5%. However I have become slightly more balanced. Compared to the ko I was previously fighting they are both (I think?) direct kos, this one has doesn't stand to ruin the top side as much as I did previously so there is a direct loss however black could afford to play such a risky ko because he has such a good balance of threats. By playing out this sequence that doesn't quite work I have gained a couple more local threats. It's tough to say, but this might be enough to get me better compensation when I loose the ko? I've only just realised while typing that I think I could have still succeed in creating a step ko depending on how black chooses to fight it, which might be enough to make it worth it. My internal win rate is bubbling back up again slightly. The reason I'm playing this sequence of moves that look like local threats is that black can stop them working as threats when I start the ko (w 19-15,b15-17, w19-17, b18-17, w16-19..) after this sequence I have only 2 liberties so these moves I just played wouldn't be good threats

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger 1 accepted. I played 11-17, L17. White responded with 12-16, M16.
Trigger 2 accepted. I played 10-18, K18. White responded with 19-15, T15.

Then, I play:

If you play 19-17, I will play:

Well, now he's going into a simple direct ko where I'm making the first global threat. I definitely think this is not as good for him as the two-step variation where he gets 7 local threats - it's not like making ko threats is free for me, even if I do have a lot of decent ones.
In fact, I think he would have been better served by the clamp at 12-18 after I atari at 13-16. I anticipated black takes, white atari under, and black throws in at 14-19 to be best there, which makes a direct ko that's a lot better for white.

Anyway, my first ko threat of choice has changed from the one I was going to play earlier. I'm going to make my first ko threat the atari at 5-14. That ko threat confuses the game more for him, I think. Actually, I have a very hard time figuring out the best response myself. You'd normally like to extend with white at 6-15, but it would give me more ko threats to do so.

I'm definitely feeling a lot better about this ko shenanigans than I was feeling before.

Author:  MikeKyle [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger accepted 19(T)-17 followed by b 18(S)-18


Trigger if b 19-18 then

Since I last played it 1917 has received 10 Oscar nominations so it must be good. Very happy with this development - more comment to follow

Author:  MikeKyle [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

For captures, I currently think 8:4 and 9:4 if the trigger move is played.

Further Malkovich comments
Disappointed in my reading again. I mentioned earlier a couple of local threats. One of these threats was 13-15 which doesn't work because black can just take a liberty away. I got one local threat at the top but I should have got two. If I had exchanged w 11-19, b 10-19 then I would be able to play 14-19 and then 11-18 as local threats instead of just 13-19 :/
Still, I really thought black should have played a ko threat instead of 18-18. Now I have my step ko for black. I will get three moves elsewhere which should compensate me for this corner well enough. I think I ought to properly count threats to determine if I will get something like the top left situation out of the bargain or not.

Author:  TelegraphGo [ Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Trigger not accepted. I play

Captures: B: 9, W: 4.

He triggered on me playing on top of one of my stones? I'm pretty sure I'm visualizing properly.

We're still wading through towards the ko. I'm thinking the most likely result is that I capture the top and he captures my bottom left 4 stones. Since I'd come out with sente there, it seems playable for me, though still I'd be a little worse.

I could have played 14-19 instead of 18-18 last move, and then it would have gone b 14-19, w 18-18, b 15-19, w 18-19, b 16-19. I would have captured the trouble stones in gote. The thing is, that's still a big loss, and I should be winning this ko anyway, so I'm evaluating it as slightly more black's equity than white's.

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