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80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2287 |
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Author: | antone [ Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Me and Hazushi are starting a new Malkovich game. We have agreed that it's going to be an open game, meaning that both players can read all comments. The idea is that this will make it less a competitive exercise and more of a learning experience for everyone involved. If you have something that you want to comment but you explicitly don't want the players to read it, please mark it clearly as "not for players". Anything else is assumed readable. As for the game itself, Hazushi will be black, I will be playing white and we have a standard 6.5 komi. Well, looks like that's it. Have fun!
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Author: | Hazushi [ Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Im not sure if hide tags are necessary but ill use them to keep everything clean and managable. Don't have much to say at the moment. The 5-3 point is an old-established move which was very popular in the Edo period (1600-1867). Its chief characteristic is that it places its main emphasis on influence - territorially. My next move will be for one of the two bottom corners. |
Author: | antone [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
First of all Hazushi, thanks for playing me. Have a nice game! I'll hide comments too to save on space.
Mmmm, 5-3 opening. I used to play that a lot as black for a while in the past, typically with bad results. It tends to develop into a moyo game (at least it did for me) and I kind of don't really like those. To reduce the possibility of a moyo game I feel like I should at least try to offer a diagonal opening in hopes that my opponent will accept it. As for the specific point I should play in, I have no idea, but I think anything more or less can do for now. So here comes Mr. Flexible the 4-4. Let's see what black does. |
Author: | Hazushi [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
I like to play where black gets one side of the board and white gets the other. I usually try to avoid games where one can get the far corner to where you get the diagonal effect because it makes for a very hard game at which I usually lose. How ever I have a plan (sort of) and dont mind playing this. Now either white will take the last corner or play against one of mine. If he takes the last corner I will either approach one of his depending on what point is played, or add an extra enclosure into one of mine, currently I am not sure which one I will do. If he approachs against one of mine I will take the last corner with another 3-5 approach. I am not usually up for reading comments much unless specifically aimed for me since I think they sort of really have the possibility to change the outcome of the game but this will be a new thing for me to try and like antone said to be less competitive and more of a learning experience. As seeing that antone said that he has used the 3-5 a lot this will be a very interesting game, makes me want to ignore comments just to see the outcome, obviously I have not played against to many people who know much about the 3-5 thats why I tend to use it currently. Im not sure how antone gets moyo games from it most of the time, though the 3-5 is quite versitile if you ask me and I have been able to easily change a game from a territorial into a influencial ( moyo filled ) and vise vera. But I usually somewhat avoid moyo games no reason specifically I just do not play that way. I had not noticed that antone wanted to play a diagonal game till after I chose it. I think thats all I got on my mind about this, I seem lost somewhere though. |
Author: | antone [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
I think that my opponent's last move is a slight mistake. The 3-5 point naturally aims more for the side than for the corner. Now both his 3-5 stones face my 4-4. While an approach from either side is big for black, assuming I reply with a low kosumi this automatically decreases the value of the other 3-5. So any gain black makes by approaching the upper left is nullified (maybe that's whishful thinking on my part) I therefore decided to play another 4-4 here. It looks like it's not very easy for B to approach the bottom right and make his stones work well with either of his corners. I also considered a 3-3 in this corner, but I discarded it because since black's best choice is probably making a shimari, now I'm fine with that, since it means that I get to make the first approach. Since the situation is practically symmetrical I will have no trouble making an approach that works with my own stone. It would be harder with a 3-3 |
Author: | Hazushi [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
I do not like the 4-4 much yet I do know enough about it to deal with them accordingly. A simple enclosure here, it dosen't really aim or deal with at any of my opponents sides but it does offer a good extension at either D-8 or H-4 for later use in sente or such position or even a moyo run. I believe antone will approach at the 3-4 in the top right to where as either I will avalanche or extend, there is not much for pincer in such position. If I extend it will be out to N-16, M-16, M-17 or even out to J-17. At either N-16 or M-16 I can create a moyo with in a few moves. At J-17 would be in hopes that white cuts between it and the corner. I can also create an avalanche with Q-15. Ehh I am not sure what exactly I will do next, the 4-4s can yeild more territiory to white in this case against the 3-5s I have in play. I am currently sitting on J-17 or the avalanche at Q-15. Thats all I got at the moment. |
Author: | antone [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
The urgent points on the board are the incomplete top right corner and the bottom:
C is a huge point, it's the ideal extension from black's shimari and from white's lower right corner. A point where both players want to play is not only extra big, it's also quite urgent. I considered taking it immediately, but then black would get another shimari on the top, and he would be way ahead in territory. Although I do get to steal his extension again AND make a double wing formation at the same time, I feel like it's not going to be easy for white to keep up, especially since I played diagonal with the purpose of discouraging moyos
Also black might consider 1 and 3 like miai, and play ![]() ![]() B is another option, but I don't like it because it tends to give black a huge corner:
This is not terrible for white, my stones are working ok, but black gets a very big corner, and is way ahead in definite territory. Can white's influence be converted in as much cash in the end ? Maybe, but it looks hard. Also black k4 is now an obviously very good move. I feel white is behind here. To be honest there are other moves than ![]() That leaves A, to break up the top left corner: Hazushi says that if I approach he will play the avalanche. I'm not sure what he means since as far as I know there is no way to get to the avalanche here. I'm guessing he mixed up the names and he intends to play the taisha at Q14. The taisha is a scary beast, but I think I can deal with it. Unfortunately it's so complex that there's not much telling how it will go, so I can't make any preparatory moves and have to jump right into the darkness. Fortunately that goes for my opponent too. And if I change my mind there are ways to avoid it even after Q14.
If it does get to here, I will have the last chance to avoid complication with a, which kind of works ok with me. The other main option for black is the press at Q15, but that looks bad for him.
![]() Black could also play some kind of pincer, that would be surprising, I'll decide what to play when I see it. Finally black might tenuki, probably at K4, but then I can pincer his stone on top and I think I'm still ok. Whew! that was a lot of writing, this Malkovich thing is hard! Oh, for reference, this is the avalanche
Next black can play a for the small avalanche or b for the big one. |
Author: | Hazushi [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
This move I use quite often at times its known as the 3 space pincer in conjuction with the 3-4 stone most notably used by Honinbo Dosaku. After veiwing some of my ideas they put me in an area I felt behind. And after a good sleep I re-thought out the position.
"A" through "D" are responces I have come across the most. "A", "B" and "C" usually have the best outcome for white in this situation. I can not really tell where white will play next and thus I have no ideas about how I will play. Currently this is ok for me though it gives me possibilities at both sides. Thats all the thoughts I have about this at the moment I have to see where white plays to know what to do next. |
Author: | antone [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
I'm feeling slightly uncomfortable. I've never had this played against me before, nor have I ever played it myself, actually I've never seen it, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm going to play here because this reverts to something I know, namely, we could have got here if we had played like this:
I would not really have tenukied to 8, but I feel like it's not an awful mistake, it might even be good. Next I guess black is going to reinforce either the top or the side, that's ok because I will get an attack of the other one. Or black might approach one of my corners, that's going to be an interesting play to answer. |
Author: | Aphelion [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
antone wrote:
This tewari feels contrived to me, but since I don't know much about tewari, so I will bite my tongue on that front. However, I do feel that ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Hazushi [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Ah the reason why I like this move.
Whites most common responce is at "a" and that is considered the correct responce. If white "b" or "c" I can just run underneath at the marked "square". If white does not play "a" that leaves me open to play "c". My marked stone, is to far to be successfully attacked, at least how I see it. It is just out of reach for a tight pincer or even an effective pincer if you ask me, and if pincered I simply extend out along the marked "squares". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if white extends to "a" I can jump out to the "square". At the extension at "b" I can sucessfully cut in between leaving... a mess every where. Cutting the "b" extend is simple, my stones on the top and side wall make that cut easy to achieve with saftey and with out any complications at which I have the better outcome. Cutting the "c" extend however this is is not possible, the variation is easy to see and I will loose about 5-6 stone in the process, Thus I will just extend out also against this. There is also extending out to "d" where I could fall under to "e" or jump out to "f". I think thats all of my ideas. |
Author: | antone [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Attaching to this stone to ensure life in the corner. Once black gets a two space extension these stones are already strong, so I don't mind if they become stronger. I expect black to extend solidly (common answer to the kick). After that, the corner is practically alive, and I can tenuki, I think.
Unfortunately, it's not easy to attack the lone stone on the right, because it has many directions to run to. Also the corner has a shape weakness at a. Will have to think about what to do with my sente later (if I get it at all) |
Author: | Hazushi [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
I caught antone's move right before I fell asleep last night. Honestly I havent really thought this move out but its good enough for me. Its aimed at the corner, if ignored I can do something like dive underneath to the mark. If answered at the mark theres enough room to play into the corner and live. Common responces though are at "a" or "b".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ White can ignore this and play at "a" to where I will just simply extend and that still leaves white to look at his corner at the bottom. Playing at "b" to defend the weak point I will just hop over to "c". And choosing to pincer at "c" or "d" have also been thought out ( roughly ). Pincering at "c" or "d" and I will attack the weak point at "b" possibly, still thinking that one out might do something else.
Ehh thats all I got. |
Author: | gaius [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Aphelion, the kosumi is pure joseki, no worries ![]() About the last move (NOT for players): It is absolutely crucial for black to finish the joseki:
By not finishing the joseki, black has given white a chance. Like this, black's two stones will be in trouble already (white 'a' instead of ![]() ![]()
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Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Gaius, I know the kosumi is joseki, but in that tewari black gave where he has support on the left and an empty corner on bottom right, don't you think the kosumi is just a tad slow there? I'd think either taking the empty corner or pincering takes account into the whole board a bit better. Also, (not for players):
I remember Mingjiu advocating this response to the kick, is it better here than 'a'? |
Author: | gaius [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Aphelion, I'm not sure. Given that it's a cross-fuseki anyway, I see no problem in playing solid, territorial moves. On the other hand, you have a point that black also has two 4-4 stones that aim at big development, which might make the kosumi a bit too slow. In any case, I personally wouldn't really want to tenuki, because your scope for development get reduced a bit if white seals you in. But these differences are quite subtle and tough to judge for me too. Quote: I remember Mingjiu advocating this response to the kick, is it better here than 'a'? Yes, probably you're right ![]() |
Author: | antone [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Sorry for the delay Hazushi, I recently found out I have to move at the end of the month, so my play will be a bit sparse for a while. For some reason I feel like I'm behind already in this game. I'm not too worried by that because it often happens to me to get this feeling in the first few moves especially when playing white. Still it looks like it's going to be a hard game.
These were the moves I considered playing, and here's some reasoning: My opponent's tenuki surprised me quite a bit, I'm pretty sure he should have played P16 so that's a prime candidate. The move he actually played is also surprising, it looks like he's trying to strike some sort of balance between helping his R12 stone, and attacking the corner. But it's still way overextended from his other stone and also a bit too far from the corner. At the same time he's pushing me towards the big point on the bottom. I guess he's not really aiming for the corner, and instead intends to attack next from the left, building towards his shimari and possibly giving up on this approach stone. If so, for me to play P16 now might be a mistake and I should just play O3 or N3. However it just looks to me like P16 is really urgent (hello, contact play?), even if black can just defend easily it's still huge.
Just getting this point means that A is no longer such a weak point for my group, therefore an attack on the black right group becomes quite possible, especially with that enormous gap between the two stones. Additionally if black does not play ![]() Supposing black tenukies again, the only thing that really makes sense to me is an approach around O3. That would be tricky to handle, and black surely gets some sort of profit on the bottom, but since the R7 group/stone is now weakish, I hope white can come out of it ok. I would really like to play around O3 myself, but if I omit playing P16 first I can't really fight back seriously. P.S. thanks to the observers for making comments, even though I can't read them. When I opted for an open game part of the reason was that I was not sure I could trust myself to not read the hidden comments. It's proven to be every way as hard as I thought it would be. Please at least let me know when I _can_ read them! |
Author: | Redundant [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() This move. |
Author: | Hazushi [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
Like I said before I will just extend out I have already thought of this and I know I will achieve enough territory else where. And like earlier it depends where my opponent plays now, I have already shown ideas earlier thats the best I can do at the moment since I am beyond busy at the moment but I still base my ideas on those roughly. In all it now depends on where my opponent plays. |
Author: | gromit [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 80. Antone(7k) vs Hazushi(7k) Open Malkovich |
antone wrote: I'll hide comments too to save on space. Personally I hate hide tags, so I'm more likely to follow the game if at least the players' comments are open. |
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