Life In 19x19 :: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Ok. I think I messed up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 I wanted this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 And now I got this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My Options are: Play out the lower right and let him get sente to double approach the upper left. (That just seems bad) Or start playing the upper left again hoping he will give me sente. Of course this allows him to pincer my O3 and gain a position on the lower side (The one my 3-5 is pointing at: not good) My third option is to start something complicated by playing at a, but I have no Idea where this will lead.

On second thoughts, perhaps something like this is better for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not certain of best response here. Perhaps something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Will have to think some more if white plays like this. Either way, I think black should come out with a fairly solid wall as compensation for ceding the corner.

Author:	Koroviev [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Mnemonic and I will play an even game. 6.5 komi, territory scoring, no joseki databases, comments hidden to players. Nigiri: Mnenomic will guess odd or even, then look inside my hide tag to see who takes black. Hopefully the other weaker players will enjoy watching our game, and the stronger players can offer some kind advice - for after the game of course. 14 stones are released onto the board Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] For clarity, prisoners are displayed like this: if black captures one stone, the score reads "B: 1, W: 0" Good luck Mnemonic, and enjoy the game. Let battle commence. EDIT: Spelled my opponent's name wrong - most disrespectful.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Ok, I'm feeling lucky: I'm guessing odd. Edit: Ok, so I'm white. I'm ok with that. Anyways, good luck and have fun. A quick introduction for those who care (I guess you can read this too, Koroviev) I first learned about go while reading Hikaru No Go when I was 14. At the time we were playing a lot of 4 in a row during class and it got boring. After reading up on the rules online, I challenged some of my friends to some quick matches on a 9x9 with pen and paper. I also downloaded igowin and got up to 12k. At the end of the month I was successfully beating all my friends and they didn't want to play anymore. That and the fact that the magazine that was running the manga went under, led me to lose interest in go. This summer, while traveling the USA, I finally got around to finishing the manga and my desire to play was reawakened. Luckily the one family I was staying with also played. I asked the dad, boasting that I was a 12k. He of course, being 1k, wiped the floor with me. After that I started an intense week of study and managed to work my way up to 18k. Back in Germany, I joined the local club and hit the 10k mark on KGS after just over 3 months of playing. Then I was forced on a 2 month hiatus due to starting College and finding and renovating a place to live. Now, after finally securing internet access, I am eager to start playing again. Short term goal: 9k by the end of January Mid term goal: Getting strong enough to represent my club Long term goal: Getting strong enough to beat my US sensai in an even match.

Author:	Koroviev [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Unlucky. I will take black. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I've been working on my opening lately, trying to be less completely lost at the beginning of the game. My usual plan as black is simple - two hoshi stones (because I like fighting) and then an approach to one of white's corners, in order to take the initiative. Let's see how this goes.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Since I am white I have to respond to black. The easiest way to do that is to stay flexible, so I’ll play hoshi. I played it in the upper left because I am hoping Black will go for a cross position Fuseki. If he doesn’t, I will get a chance to play in the lower left. Ni-ren-sai is standard, but at the moment I'm leaning towards 3-5 just to shake things up.

Author:	Koroviev [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] As planned. I will mostly try to avoid long, fanciful variation diagrams in my thoughts on this game, since I know how unlikely they are to be feasible.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2659	Page 1 of 5

Author:	Mnemonic [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Last move for the night. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Playing 3-5 here just to try something new. is the only unbalanced corner so I'm expecting him to approach. a-c are the invasion points I know. The only other option I see is san-ren-sai. I'll have to wait and see what he chooses. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$ $$ \| . . . . . . $$ \| . . . c . . $$ \| . . b , . . $$ \| . . a . 4 . $$ \| . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . $$ -------[/go]`

Author:	Koroviev [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Good morning. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Hmm, his stone in the bottom left is an uncommon one (in my experience at least), but it doesn't concern me too much. Still, I'll put off dealing with it by approaching the upper left first I'm not sure if an approach on the 4th line would be more consistent with my 4-4 stone than the 3rd line approach I've chosen - but I'm more comfortable with the latter. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 . . 5 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If he then extends from 6, I will approach the lower left from above.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Thanks Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Hm, ok. So he approached the other corner. I don't know if that is the best move because if we play this simple variation ... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm1 Sente for white $$ -------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . . $$ \| . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 2 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` I get Sente. I'm not in a hurry to enclose the hoshi stone because it needs a further 2 moves to secure the corner so he could have saved this exchange for later and invade my 3-5. I almost played C13, but I didn't like this result. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm1 not good for white? $$ -------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 5 3 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . 1 2 6 X . . . . $$ \| . . 7 O . a . . . , $$ \| . . 9 8 . . . . . . $$ \| . . 0 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` My wall is facing the wrong direction and I would have to come back and play a or he would have a lot of forcing moves in the area. If this was a tournament game I would just play C14, take sente and approach the bottom right. But if I'm to learn something I'll have to step out of my comfort zone and going for a counter attack. Because of my 3-5 stone the bottom side is the most interesting so I'm going there first. I'm not too afraid of a double approach to my top left, though I don't think I could tenuki again after that. I wonder if this will turn out to be the game losing move At least I think he wasn’t expecting this.

Author:	Koroviev [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
The good thing about having to record my thoughts with each move is that I am forced to actually have some thoughts. This is not necessarily the norm for me. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Considered the pincer, but don't think my position is strong enough. As I understand it, an attacking move such as a pincer is best when you have some strength to continue the attack. I choose a simple extension instead, but on the 4th line with a view to later development, possibly after we return to the upper left. If I get something like the below, I would be reasonably happy I think. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . X . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . 3 . . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Edit: On second thoughts, perhaps 4 above would be bad, as White could pincer my weak group around 6? Though White himself is perhaps not strong enough up there...

Author:	Mnemonic [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Some thoughts Ok. I think I messed up. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 I wanted this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 And now I got this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My Options are: Play out the lower right and let him get sente to double approach the upper left. (That just seems bad) Or start playing the upper left again hoping he will give me sente. Of course this allows him to pincer my O3 and gain a position on the lower side (The one my 3-5 is pointing at: not good) My third option is to start something complicated by playing at a, but I have no Idea where this will lead.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Ok, I think I got something. It's not pretty but I got myself to blame for that. The 3-5 point hat two enclosures. a is the normal 3-4 point and its direction of play is the left side in my example. The second one (b) leaves a weakness at the 33 point but its direction of play is toward the lower side. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Two enclosures $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] To me that means that the two corners are (sort of) miai. If I gain strength in one and lose it in the other I can freely choose which corner to support, depending on my choice of shimari. I played low to reduce the aji. I have way too many weak spots on the board.

Author:	Koroviev [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . 9 . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I considered responding in the top left, but this seems too much like following the opponent around. It seems like a good time to pincer in the bottom right, since I have the stone at Q6 already, so don't need to play there in response to a one-point-jump. Naturally, he may respond with a pincer in the top left, but I'm happy with that. In response I am expecting a counter pincer in the top left, the diagonal play at N4, or tenuki. I don't think he will jump straight out to O5 in this position, and playing the 3-3 invasion no longer looks good.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Merry Chrismas Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . . 0 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Only move I can see. It should live, although mabye in gote. (Paying the price for my tenuki ) Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 7 . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . X . O 6 2 1 . . \| $$ . . . . 4 3 5 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]` Leaning on the black stone just seems wrong. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . 4 . . . X . . . \| $$ . . 3 . . . . . . \| $$ . 2 1 . . X . . . \| $$ . X . O . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]` And jumping doesn't get me anywhere either. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . X . O . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]`

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:15 am ]
Post subject:	Black Move 5
Black Move 5. Players should not read this until after the opening and well into the mid-game. The lower left corner is considered "unfinished," so an approach by Black is also quite big: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Author:	EdLee [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Move 10
Happy holidays. White Move 10. Players should not read this until the lower right corner is settled, which may be a while. Mnemonic wrote: And jumping doesn't get me anywhere either. Not true. After Mnemonic's variation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . c . . X . O . . a . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . b . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]` White still has the options to jump into 3-3 with (a), or keima (b), or block Black with (c). Since Black cannot get both the corner (a or b) and the side (c), they are miai for White. And this is true immediately after White's first jump: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . . . . . . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . c . . X . O . . a . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . b . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]` Already, the corner (a or b) and the side (c) are miai for White, so jumping to 1 is OK.

Author:	Mnemonic [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Thanks for the comments, ... ... although I have a feeling what they are saying: Move 5 just plain sucks. If I would have played solid I could have secured the upper corner and build the beginning of a framework on the lower side: now I have neither. And to tenuki after 5 with 7 smacks of inconsistency. Other thoughts: I'm a bit afraid about this Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X 4 . . \| $$ . X . O . 2 1 7 . \| $$ . . . . 5 3 6 8 . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------[/go]` Don't know ... I'll have to read and more importantly MAKE A DECENT MOVE for a change New rule: write up a post and then take 5 minutes to think about it before submitting it.

Author:	Koroviev [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Thanks for the comments, Ed Lee, I look forward to reading them, with not a little trepidation. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Wasn't expecting this jump into the corner, as I said. I suspect (probably wrongly) that this invasion might be less favourable for white with my Q6 stone in place - though I don't think W will have any problems living in the corner. I didn't think much about which side to block, as it seems obvious - but perhaps I'll learn otherwise. Anyway, I'm predicting something like the following from this invasion, and I'm happy with that - I am trying to play mostly for influence, hence opening with 4-4 stones. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . X . O 7 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Merry Christmas Mnemonic, and all observers.

Author:	Koroviev [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
Further thoughts: On second thoughts, perhaps something like this is better for white: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Not certain of best response here. Perhaps something like: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Will have to think some more if white plays like this. Either way, I think black should come out with a fairly solid wall as compensation for ceding the corner.

Author:	Laman [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)
EdLee: perhaps you shouldn't write exactly which move you comment. just it itself gives pretty much information or base for unreasonable speculations for players. but it is up to you, no offense to game: i think neither player did so far any real mistakes. opened corner C4 is surely big and sequence in the lower right corner wouldn't fit my taste playing white but i think it is perfectly ok to play like this, especially for double digit kyu - DDK mistakes look much worse white tenukis 6 and 8 are nice and stylish, although i cannot say if it is the very best way to play, they are at least pretty cool

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Laman, no offense taken and thanks for the input. If either player would rather see no move numbers mentioned, I will refrain. It is only for ease of search for the spectators (during and after the game) and the players (only afterwards). Obviously, we all want to give zero information about the game to the players, and that's why certain comments are hidden. We all know any comment (with or without a move number) can be pretty much about anything at all: good, bad, or neutral, or about other (pro) variations; it may not even be about that move itself, but rather about something in the past or the future; or, it may have nothing to do with the game at all.