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| 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3158 |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I've just agreed a game with Mark356 as a 0.5 point reverse komi game with me taking White. the idea is it is an open Malkovich for him, but not for me other than reading his comments - the aim is to make it more of an instructional Malkovich. As such, I'm going to comment on my thoughts and ideas, and put any specific sequences and reading inside separate hide tags with spoilers, so that he can choose whether to see them or not. So, have a great game 
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I like the 3-4 point as black. Possible follow-ups include the Korean, the Kobayashi, the Shusaku, and certain tasukis, or White can approach immediately, and I'd be happy with any of those options. I like the 4-4 too, and sometimes the 3-3, particularly as White. But I like the stability and balance of the 3-4: more territorial and safer than the 4-4, but more aggressive and more favorable to moyo-building than the 3-3. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
General: This is what I tend to do in "normal" games against a 3-4. Then I normally approach high (although I intend on approaching low this time to be different). Sente for the last corner is important too obviously. |
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
Immediate thoughts:
Recently I've been very much into playing "B" as a response to this hoshi. The hoshi tells me that White is interested in approaching soon, so I may as well just prevent that. (John Fairbairn wrote that this used to be fairly common, so since then I've been experimenting with it.) Usually White then plays near D (specifically, either the hoshi or R4 usually), and then Black plays in the last corner. Some players ignore this sort-of-approach and just play in C for a tasuki, or at D, which can lead to a smaller variation of the Orthadox, or a modified Shusaku. Either would be fine, but I'm pretty sure that White will approach immediately if I do either of those, and then just continue attacking if I took the last corner. I think I should only play D if I'm OK with letting my first move get pincered. The problem with playing an enclosure and letting White make a tasuki is that the follow-up is often like this:
And after that White 6 I'm never quite sure what to do, because White has a nice structure right where I want influence. I'm never sure if I should try to contest that structure right away, such as by approaching the lower-right hoshi or even extending from the shimari up top, or if I just ignore. If I ignore, sometimes later in the game I'm placed in the awkward position of needing to play at point "A" in the first diagram, if I've let White approach too close on both sides. I'll decide on my move later. |
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
This is my current favorite move in this position, so I may as well play it. It's a little more complicated than the small knight's shimari, because it's not fully settled yet, and I'll have to take that into account in the fighting that follows. But I feel like it throws its influence a little farther in both directions than the small knight's. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
You want the right? Not on my watch! 5-4 are aiming to develop the side that they are on the 4th line of (in fact, that's true for most opening moves), so this attempts to disrupt Black's plans a bit. The choice of Black's in the lower left will be very important with respect to White's strategy going forward. |
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| Author: | Redundant [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I just want to say that I really like 
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I like this opening a lot also. Where has John F. written something on it ? I like E3 next, myself. Edit: E3, not E5, though to be fair E5 looks fun too. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Nice and simple, as (a) and (b) are miai for B:
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
Interesting! I was expecting a hoshi in that corner. This reminds me of two Shuei games:
In this one, the 5-4 was played after Black had already played a komoku, so Black kind of had to make the best of a bad situation.
Black plays an approach before taking the last corner, for sente. Of course that lets White wedge, and the rest of the game is a fighting game. If I were to take the last corner, I would either play hoshi or e3, the former because it's an influential stone to counter White's influential stones, the latter because its influence is pointing towards the weak side of White 4. I've been trying to read out what might happen if I followed Black and approached. If I ignore a pincer, I'll then have to either live under or just leave the stone for aji. If White ignores and takes the corner, pretty much everything I play after would be an invasion:
I'd live, probably in gote, but White would get a huge wall facing the weak side of my stone.
At this point I would have sente and would be able to fix one of my two weak groups. Whichever one I help, I'll still be leaving a weak group on the board, and White will either be able to attack it or ignore and play Q3. Which brings me back to D4 and E3. But I'm not sure how either of those would play out. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
Shuei was white in both those games, eh? |
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
@ Loons: Yes. Shuei was white in both games, and Kuroda Shunsetsu was black in both games. Shuei is ahead by about 10 points where the record leaves off in the first game, but resigned the second after he invades the lower side and dies. In the second, Black's shimari, approach stone, and approach to the 5-3 all become small but strong groups. However, I'm thinking that Topaz wouldn't let me either peacefully make a small group approaching the 5-4 or let me approach the top and then make it live after playing elsewhere. John Fairbairn discussed White 2 and Black 3 in the "White 8 is bad" thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2877&p=47134#p47134 |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Oops... topazg wrote: the idea is it is an open Malkovich for him Sorry, what does an open Malkovich for Mark356 mean, exactly?That Mark356 is free to read any comments, even if hidden, unless specified otherwise? Or are observers not allowed to hide comments from Mark356 at all? Sorry, my last post was hidden, I had thought neither player would read it, but it seems Mark356 could just read Loons' hidden comment.
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I'm not entirely sure of this, but I have these 2 joseki in mind:
For the second joseki, if w blocks on the other side, I'll simply sacrifice a stone:
There is the possibility that w will opt to cut rather than play out the keima press:
In which case there will be a fight, and I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get something out of it. Of course there's always the uncomfortable possibility that you'll just take the big side points:
But if that happens, it means that this will be a solid territory vs. loose moyo game, and I can handle that too. I'm not entirely happy with this. I still think that the 4-4 point is a good option in this context-- it's a good strong stone that is happy even if I tenuki from it, and its influence might help counter the influence of both of the white corner stones. I also considered the 4-5 point for a long time, which would aim at the weak side of white's 4-5 more strongly than the 3-5 would. But I decided I don't like fourth-line stones-- I wanted a little of the stability that a third-line stone goes for. @EdLee: Yes, I can read any comments. From here on, I will not look at comments until I've read things out a little bit, perhaps not until I post my first thoughts, so that my move might be informed by the discussion but not unduly influenced by it. If you don't want me to read your comment until after I make my move, just put "spoilers" or something in front of the hide tags. If you really don't want me to read it at all until the game is over, put "not for Mark." |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mark356 wrote: it means that this will be a solid territory vs. loose moyo game Common misconception. There's no solid territory in the last variation.I've had many games where the lower left B shimari became W's territory later on in the game. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
Well, we both wanted to develop the right, and with his shimari, he sort of double wants to. So I think this is a pretty high priority. Lower left and lower right are both interesting as well. Haven't decided whether to approach high or low in the lower left, and I don't want to shimari in the lower right just yet. With respect to sides, The right side seems the area of greatest interest, so something that gives me good options if Black approaches somewhere like Q3 (as Black will struggle to make a large development on the bottom edge because of the low E3, I can happily play for the corner, and aim to approach the lower left high to keep Black from developing on too large a scale while helping out the left side. Something like that anyway. |
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
First thoughts: Interesting reply. I was sure that he'd play k3 very soon, because it makes e3 look kind of ridiculous. However, this reply is both a little more stable (it's smaller) and a little more aggressive (aims to mitigate the influence of my shimari). I'm not quite sure what to do now.
I could just reply locally, and make a two or three space jump, at A or B. A has the advantage of settling right away, and starting to realize the potential of the shimari, B wants to pick a fight. If I want to settle that group now, I would probably do so at A. But I don't have to settle it now, because if he plays A, I can just swing the other way, to C or D, and if he plays the approach at C, I still have the option of settling at A. But if I settle now, I would be able to attack a play at C immediately rather than getting dressed first. E is the next point I'm considering. I really think it was premature to play e3 rather than d4. However, this sort of shimari is possible. The usual attack is the C4 keima at F. I don't want to play at F myself, or definitely not too soon, because then he'll just play at E. But if I play E and he plays F, I then play a 3-point extension/1 point pincer, and settle both my groups while his is running. Given that G is still open, I may as well play it. But the problem is that not only does the joseki normally end in gote, White's last move is to extend to White 6. Therefore, if I were to start playing this joseki now, White would either finish by attacking my unsettled group at its base, or just by taking sente somewhere else. That leaves the normal approaches at H and I. If there were some way I could end those approaches in sente, then I definitely want to play them. I'm thinking maybe I could play H, expecting a pincer, then play E. White will probably then attack the H stone, and I will live under, and at the end finish by making a two-point jump from E. The problem with this plan is that first, White could play a positive response rather than a pincer-- in fact, white could easily respond to H at E-- and second, White can force me to live in gote. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
Spoiler (Until move 30 or so) The reason I didn't like K3 was that it doesn't really interest my lower right stone enough. Naturally it's a point useful to Black, but this is fine:
I was less keen on White's ability to make his stones in the lower right work now. I have the ladder towards the top left, so I can force you into the corner, but that means you have 3 good corner positions, and White's compensation isn't that clear to me. When I took the 5-4 in the lower right, I deliberately aimed at making the right side really interesting to both of us - making a sort of miai of the right and the remaining empty corner. Had I picked, for example, a 3-4 at Q3, I would feel less confident finding an easy way of addressing an approach on that side, as Black can easily make a strong framework. The 4-4 is probably ok too, but will lead to yet another bunch of variations as you can still approach at R6 usefully. By choosing the 5-4, I intended on making the approach to my corner from the right side hard to play. |
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| Author: | Laman [ Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
hmm, i am not really sure how should i comment on an open malkovich, but if i keep it same as every malkovich, here are my thoughts about Mark's thoughts
in the upper right corner, i would strongly prefer black 'b' to black 'a'. 'a' seems to unambitious to me and 'b' creates no real weakness but both 'a' and 'b' are in the wrong direction - right side was indeed big, but that was before w6, now it became pretty small. if i wanted to develop the shimari, it would be by b K17 extension e might be little problematic, though i understand your intention to use it as a pre-pincer. it just looks like an awkward extension (developing a side where you haven't settled the corner yet) and i can't get rid of a feeling that white would be still happy to take 'f' i would probably think about playing f or not so usual loose shimari b D15.
i believe this is possible continuation and the position is still pretty even. black lower side is low and he has a gap at the upper side, but he gets play either 'a' or 'b' and white is also not rock-solid however, shimari b D15 also interests me. it emphasize the lower side and white faces a decision - if he makes a shimari with w Q3 komoku, black happily extends along the lower side. if white takes K3 or a near point, black invades white's corner (similar to w 'f' after black 'e') i can't say for sure i am right, just some thoughts |
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| Author: | Mark356 [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open |
I think Laman is right. Enclosing this corner is big. It settles my stone. More importantly, it is sente: I expect White to play near c10 very soon. (Furthermore, I expect to be forced to play at k3 soon.) Next, I will approach the top: if White pincers, I will counter-pincer, and although my group will be small, it will live in the middle of White's formation. If White defends, I'll get a nice piece of the top. Knowing that this is my plan, an interesting move for White might be to simply make a shimari, perhaps a large knight's move. I can't approach a large knight's move the same way I can approach a hoshi, and invading under it only gets about six points and gives White terrific influence. It would also mean that I can't extend so far from my shimari up top. However, if White plays a small two-point extension from the hoshi, I get to play the big midpoint. The other move that made it to the finals was to approach the top stone first. However, it is not sente for two reasons: first, a hoshi can always live; secondly, if I approached, it would be bigger for White to either settle the 4-5 stone or attack my 5-3, either of which are sente. Finally, if I were to approach the hoshi now, either I would have to play the line to the end regardless of sente, or I would tenuki (perhaps to play this move) and accept that I'm throwing away a few stones. So why not just play here to start with? With this move, White does still have sente moves against my groups-- the top group isn't even settled-- but it's harder. It's kind of silly to start with two shimari like this, especially when White is trying to be so fast and influential. If I didn't want to take care of my stone immediately, I should have played a hoshi. In fact, part of my reasons for playing this rather than the hoshi were because of what I would do if White tried to attack it. In a way, this move destroys the directionality of the 5-3. However:
So I think Laman is right. But next time, I think it'll be easier to decide if I wait until after I make my move to read the comments! |
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