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100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3279
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Author:  jts [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Congratulations to Malkovich Go for reaching 100 games!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The rules: we can look at joseki dictionaries, but not at hidden comments.

That said, once we've moved beyond a given sequence I'd really appreciate any feedback on how it went. I've realized that for the players, the Malkovich game can get a little lonely.

Author:  tj86430 [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Have a good game!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm most familiar with 4-4, so I choose that.

Author:  EdLee [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:43 am ]
Post subject: 

Have a good game, both of you! :)
tj86430 wrote:
I'm most familiar with 4-4, so I choose that.
I prefer 3-4 in handi games: :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Chew Terr [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Ed: May I ask why?

Author:  emerus [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Quote:
Ed: May I ask why?


Just throwing it out there but I think it's cause the pincer variations can be quite sickening and give the stronger player the edge. The handicap books that I've read (Come Up to Shodan and Basic Techniques of Go) dedicate a lot of space to dealing with 3-4 and 5-4 stones as black. They can be tricky.

Author:  tj86430 [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

I'm excited. Only one move and so many comments!

Author:  Shaddy [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

emerus wrote:
Quote:
Ed: May I ask why?


Just throwing it out there but I think it's cause the pincer variations can be quite sickening and give the stronger player the edge. The handicap books that I've read (Come Up to Shodan and Basic Techniques of Go) dedicate a lot of space to dealing with 3-4 and 5-4 stones as black. They can be tricky.


IMO, it's this: 3-4 stones have much more complex joseki just in general with more room for tricks and such than 4-4 stones, which have really simple joseki that it's pretty hard to mess up.

Author:  emerus [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Shaddy wrote:
emerus wrote:
Quote:
Ed: May I ask why?


Just throwing it out there but I think it's cause the pincer variations can be quite sickening and give the stronger player the edge. The handicap books that I've read (Come Up to Shodan and Basic Techniques of Go) dedicate a lot of space to dealing with 3-4 and 5-4 stones as black. They can be tricky.


IMO, it's this: 3-4 stones have much more complex joseki just in general with more room for tricks and such than 4-4 stones, which have really simple joseki that it's pretty hard to mess up.



{hide] Yeah i agree, what a blunder[/hide]

Author:  EdLee [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

@Chew Terr.
What emerus and Shaddy said. :study:
emerus wrote:
Yeah i agree, what a blunder
Of course, 4-4 is not a blunder :), but for reference, 3-4 is 396 pages (265+131) and the 4-4 is 177 pages in Ishida's dictionary.

Author:  jts [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was wondering why tj hadn't made another move yet! :roll:

I must have been interrupted while I was posting and closed my browser. Anyway: I have this idea that the person taking the last corner wants an even number of asymmetrical corners. So, voilĂ .


Edit: made a mistake in the third variation

Author:  tj86430 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Normally I would approach from R14 (or F3) because it works together with Q4, but since this is a handicap game, I need to play more aggressive.

Author:  jts [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since we're using dictionaries, I might as well use this opportunity to experiment with josekis which I don't know very well.

Author:  tj86430 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I intend to play this fairly normal joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which gives me a nice base and possibility to later attack his stone on D11.

Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:21 pm ]
Post subject: 

@jts:
jts wrote:
Since we're using dictionaries, I might as well use this opportunity to experiment with josekis which I don't know very well.
Excellent idea.

Author:  jts [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is intuitive to me; up to here I think I could manage this corner without josekipedia. I assume that next he'll slide in and I'll block; after that the moves get increasingly non-obvious to me. Apparently W also has the option to invade the corner, which leaves him with a small corner and a heavy group... it won't be trivial for me to handle the aji of that position, but it looks good for B, even if I have trouble defending it.

@EdLee - thanks, glad you approve. I thought I might get some "consult a dictionary, lose two stones" comments. :-?

Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

@jts:
jts wrote:
I thought I might get some "consult a dictionary, lose two stones" comments.
Then we can lose 2 stones together. :mrgreen:

Author:  tj86430 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned

Author:  jts [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bizarrely, this is the only thread on the entire forum which routinely eats my posts. I think the gist of my comment was "I'm kinda glad he didn't take the corner, but I'm also kinda sad I didn't get the opportunity to see how different the wall is with the aji of the high distant pincer as opposed to the low pincer."

Author:  tj86430 [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still according to plan

Author:  jts [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100. tj86430 (4k) vs. jts (6k)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w9: is the first move in the joseki that looks odd to me. First, it looks a little too far, although once you know that it's the joseki move it's clear that B can't cut. :b10: is also a move I would never find on my own; I take it the point is to make W heavy and also to have the threat that enables B to complete the joseki successfully.

After W replies to the forcing move, I get to choose between {sente, W is very solid, B needs to watch out for a peep/ladderbreaker/clamp} and {gote, B is thick on the outside}. I think I'm going to take the former. It's not as huge a deal in a 2-stone game, but in general stronger players are able to harass weaker players by taking sente and keeping it for twenty or thirty moves. Best to stay on the offensive as long as possible.

(Qualification: I actually don't think I have that many sente moves available. But I can try to approach the lower right in sente, and then take a reverse sente move somewhere.)

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