Life In 19x19 :: Malkovich 104

Loons wrote:

Quick question for Joaz:
Just in passing, what exactly is your arcane knowledge of the 5-4 ? You're up with the modern variations so your local choice will be better? In my experience 5-4s don't normally go that complexly.
...

'Exactly' is not possible to answer without pages of diagrams and a more organized cranium. Suffice to say that the 5-4 with the subsequent 3-4 response is full of traps, primarily because the invader can be locked in, but still there is enough room for the invader himself to be undercut.
The average beginner learns the 4-4 early, because he is given it as a handicap. He learns that the 3-3 is safe as long as he gets enough eye space. When he plays even games, and invades a 4-4 with a 3-3, he never worries about his low stone being undercut, because it is almost impossible to do so.
Then, these unstated beliefs can easily be transferred to the 5-4, where they turn out not to be quite true. It looks superficially the same: a low stone living under a high stone. He may even know some 3-4 joseki, so he feels comfortable. But with the 5-4 he is a stone behind, and the 3-4 is not as safe as the 3-3.

As an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Seems normal enough $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Two extensions off of a crosscut \n can't be bad for black...right? $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 6 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it is so tempting to play separating plays like 'a' or 'b'. Both are atari, so they are clearly sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But, 'a' turns out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Something will die $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and 'b' like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White steals a big corner. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So contrary to most player's intuitions, the seemingly submissive 'c' is best. It continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black has to look after two eyeless groups.\n Both tempting ataris still fail. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now the hane seems natural:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Alas, black is tricked again $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X X 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, that is just a sample of some of the non-intuitive problems that can arise. FWIW, I won't try this, primarily because it is the best know trap, and he has probably seen it. Also, there are variations that require the ladder heading northwest to be favorable for white, and black just played there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR D5 D7 } $$ { AR E4 G4 } $$ { AR P4 N4 } $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc An important side according to Yang. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR D5 D7 } $$ { AR E4 G4 } $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A semi-important side according to Yang $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A relatively unimportant side. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Welcome, observers. Chew Terr and I are going to play. He is about 3K on KGS. I'm usually 1D AGA ( though temporarily 1K due to a couple of careless losses ) which should translate to about 1K on Kgs. So we're doing 2 stones handicap. It is no books, no databases, closed comment. @ Chew Terr: GG and GL, it's your move. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Observers: I chose the 5-4 simply because I have been studying a bit over the past year, and so it is proobably one joseki that I can expect to know better than he. It was either that or a 4-4, because I do need something with influence.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:
Have a nice game.

Author:	Loons [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
I like the 5-4. 'Luck both. Edit: Quick question for Joaz: Just in passing, what exactly is your arcane knowledge of the 5-4 ? You're up with the modern variations so your local choice will be better? In my experience 5-4s don't normally go that complexly. I look forward to your analysis of the direction of play this game.

Author:	Chew Terr [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Good morning! As I've told Joaz, I'll probably play a little slowly, as work has been busy lately, but I've been wanting to play Joaz for quite a while. I also told him that lately, all of my games have been violent (one way or another), so I fully expect to die in a fire... but it'll be a big one! At the most recent tournament, I was playing someone around Joaz's level with three stones when Yoyoma (from L19) walked up. My opponent looked up and said in an awed voice, "This is a bloodbath!". While that sounds one-sided, it was anything but. Over the course of that game, the life and death status of 30-60 point groups changed more than twice, and trades were wholesale. I ended up losing, but had an epic-scaled game to finish the tournament with. Long story short, I'm not sure I'll try to play a fighty game, but may stumble in one one anyways, judging by how things have gone lately. Joaz: I respect you and your play style, and hope to give you a game worth your time. First, please feel free to ask any questions you may have of me. A portion of my play is intuitive and 'gut'-based, s I can't promise I'll always have the answer, but I'll do my best. Many here know that I've taken lessons/studied with Topazg. Lately, he and my club president have told me that my fatal flaw is playing too thin and fast. I don't play honte moves, so my attacks run out of steam and I tend to get counterred. I am attempting to work on this issue, but it's hard. My request for viewers is this: If I make a move that you think is too thin (save for sacrifices and such of course), please post a comment. obviously, hide it if it will affect the game, but please let me know once it's fair to view it. As far as where I'm actually playing: Joaz likes odd corner shapes, as I saw in his recent opening against Araban. While I'm no stranger to oddities (I think I've played taisha more than most people my level), my joseki knowledge is almost nil, so it'd be easy to make mistakes if I do stuff that's TOO complicated. Anyhow, complexity is white's obligation in a handicap game. =) Until I have a reason to prioritize one side, I'll stay nice and balanced.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
@Loons & observers: ( some good stuff for beginners in here, BTW ) Loons wrote: Quick question for Joaz: Just in passing, what exactly is your arcane knowledge of the 5-4 ? You're up with the modern variations so your local choice will be better? In my experience 5-4s don't normally go that complexly. ... 'Exactly' is not possible to answer without pages of diagrams and a more organized cranium. Suffice to say that the 5-4 with the subsequent 3-4 response is full of traps, primarily because the invader can be locked in, but still there is enough room for the invader himself to be undercut. The average beginner learns the 4-4 early, because he is given it as a handicap. He learns that the 3-3 is safe as long as he gets enough eye space. When he plays even games, and invades a 4-4 with a 3-3, he never worries about his low stone being undercut, because it is almost impossible to do so. Then, these unstated beliefs can easily be transferred to the 5-4, where they turn out not to be quite true. It looks superficially the same: a low stone living under a high stone. He may even know some 3-4 joseki, so he feels comfortable. But with the 5-4 he is a stone behind, and the 3-4 is not as safe as the 3-3. As an example: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Seems normal enough $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Two extensions off of a crosscut \n can't be bad for black...right? $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 6 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Now it is so tempting to play separating plays like 'a' or 'b'. Both are atari, so they are clearly sente. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . c X 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` But, 'a' turns out like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Something will die $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 O X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` ...and 'b' like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc White steals a big corner. $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 O X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` So contrary to most player's intuitions, the seemingly submissive 'c' is best. It continues like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Black has to look after two eyeless groups.\n Both tempting ataris still fail. $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 5 3 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Now the hane seems natural: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Alas, black is tricked again $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 5 \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X X 6 \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` Anyway, that is just a sample of some of the non-intuitive problems that can arise. FWIW, I won't try this, primarily because it is the best know trap, and he has probably seen it. Also, there are variations that require the ladder heading northwest to be favorable for white, and black just played there.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3439	Page 1 of 12

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten )

Author:	Kirby [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Good luck to both players.

Author:	topazg [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Joaz Banbeck wrote: I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten ) I had normal for continuations, variations, alternatives, and red for overall strategic thoughts I may do that again at some point, I wasn't sure if it was a positive or a negative thing before!

Author:	Chew Terr [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
topazg wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten ) I had normal for continuations, variations, alternatives, and red for overall strategic thoughts I may do that again at some point, I wasn't sure if it was a positive or a negative thing before! I liked it in general, especially the green. Is it bad that I tended to be most interested in the green comments? =D It did look like a lot of work, though, and it may require a more organized mind than I have. =D

Author:	Shaddy [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Not for players until the bottom right is firmly settled. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I ALWAYS fall for this stupid thing (the real joseki, not joaz's trick). For those who don't know the joseki, what ends up happening most of the time is black dies somewhere because of 3.

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:
Shaddy wrote: I ALWAYS fall for this stupid thing The following pattern seems quite rare -- SmartGo returns only 2 games (out of 50,744), both from the late 1700's in Japan: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$. . . . . . \| $$. . , 3 . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. . 5 . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. 1 , 4 . . \| $$. 6 7 . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$-------------[/go]` However, for this joseki, SmartGo returns 113 games (again out of 50,744), from 1778 to 2009: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$. . . . . . \| $$. . 3 . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. 1 , 2 . . \| $$. 4 5 . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . \| $$-------------[/go]` From Ishida, "[White 5] is the severest move and leads to fairly difficult variations," taking up 13 pages in the dictionary.

Author:	Chew Terr [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
I would already consider being paranoid, if more than two moves had been played. =D

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$. . . . . . . \| $$. . . 3 . . . \| $$. . . . . . . \| $$. . 1 6 2 . . \| $$. 7 4 5 . . . \| $$. . 8 . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . \| $$---------------[/go]` In the above variation, seems to be a deviation (SmartGo returns zero games for it). Compare: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$. . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . 3 . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . \| $$. . . 1 6 2 0 . \| $$. . . 4 5 7 8 . \| $$. . . . . . 9 . \| $$. . . . . . . . \| $$---------------[/go]` Continuing: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$. . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . O . . . \| $$. . . 5 . . . . \| $$. . . O X X X . \| $$. 4 2 X O O X . \| $$. . 3 1 . 7 O 6 \| $$. . . . . . . . \| $$-----------------[/go]` According to Ishida, up to is forced, and SmartGo returns 68 games (out of 50,744) with this joseki. So Joaz's point is that there are lots of traps and pitfalls starting from the original inside hane: Joaz Banbeck wrote: FWIW, I won't try this, primarily because it is the best know [sic] trap

Author:	Shaddy [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Not for players (same as last post) There's a good reason there are only two games in the database for that shape- it's because no one who knows that shape would play that way as black if he didn't have something really good prepared. I forget that shape regularly.

Page 1 of 12	All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Shaddy wrote: I forget that shape regularly. Yes, when Ishida said "fairly difficult variations," he was not kidding.

Author:	Loons [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
3-3 approach not 3-4 is normal in the discussed position, eh.

Author:	emerus [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
When I was stuck at 5kyu forever, the 2kyu at our local club would get me with that variation every single time so it wasn't until I read Basic Techniques of Go (which also spends quite a few pages going over that joseki) that I figured it out. Let white get a single wing + enclosure but if he goes for double wing - hit the 3-3.

Author:	cdybeijing [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Very much looking forward to following this game, so I hope both players will play their best.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Chew Terr wrote: ...I fully expect to die in a fire.. As I replied in our pre-game PMs, proper manners require that I not disappoint my opponent. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Yilun Yang wrote a book called 'Fundamental Principles of Go' in which he ranked moves in the fuseki. First class moves were taking an open corner. Second class moves were completing a shimari from a 3-4 or 3-5, or approaching one of those, or a side move between two corners oriented toward that side. Third class moves were approaching a 4-4 or 3-3, or a side without two corners oriented toward it. Implied in this ranking is that one should exhaust first class moves, then play second class moves, etc. Beginner notes on direction of play: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR D5 D7 } $$ { AR E4 G4 } $$ { AR P4 N4 } $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc An important side according to Yang. $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR D5 D7 } $$ { AR E4 G4 } $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc A semi-important side according to Yang $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc A relatively unimportant side. $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` Due to the constraints of this game, I can't go looking in the book right now, but there was a bit more than that. I just don't recall what. And I may have the numbering slightly off - there were sub-classes - but the order is correct. The first two plays of this game were first class moves - we took empty corners. The next possibilities are second class moves: completing my shimari or taking a side: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , d . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Note that the right side is not considered because it has only one adjacent corner with a stone/group aimed in its direction. ( The current direction of the 5-4 is westward. It will change to northward if I complete the shimari ) I'm choosing 'a' because I get the best balance. Move 'd' keeps all of my stones in one corner of the board, as does 'c', almost. Moves 'a' and 'b' are almost equal in that respect, with 'a' winning over 'b' by an angstrom.

Author:	Horibe [ Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Joaz Banbeck wrote: [Note that the right side is not considered because it has only one adjacent corner with a stone/group aimed in its direction. ( The current direction of the 5-4 is westward. It will change to northward if I complete the shimari ) The comment above does not necessarily follow Yang principles. Yang looks at the size of the sides based on the distance between stones and the height of the stones bordering that side. So, at this point in the game, the top and left are the same size in terms of distance and are both bordered by two 4 line stones. The lower side is one smaller, and is also bordered by two 4 line stones. The right side, that Joaz rejects is the same distance as the top and left, but it is bordered by a 4th line stone and a 5th line stone - this suggests that it is the biggest side at this moment. Now I am not strong enough to interpret Yang correctly and fully, but I think Joaz has a detail wrong here. Perhaps this argues all the more for simply making the shimari. This does seem slow in a handicap game. Because of the handicap nature, I like the star point on the right. Certainly I question the splitting move when there is another very similar one on the left side - if there are two is it urgent to take one?