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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:49 am 
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This is a game between Tryphon and me. I'm playing black, and komi will be 6.5 with Japanese rules

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Good game Tryphon. May Shusaku be with you. (ha ha)

This is a standard starting move for me as black. I very rarely play elsewhere as my starting move when playing black. In this regard, I guess I'm one dimensional, but I've never seen any reason not to play here!

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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #2 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:16 am 
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Good game to you :) Please, could you give me a number between 1 and 100 ?

Hi, I'm Tryphon and this is my first Malkovich game. I reached KGS 9k but last year was kind of busy for me (my first child was born on September, and my wife's pregnancy was difficult) and I almost didn't play a real-time game since last summer. I play now mostly on OGS.

I like :
- influence
- stones working well together
- attacking
- strange openings

I dislike (and I'm very weak at) :
- endgame
- counting (likely my worst weakpoint)
- complicate sequences (to be true, I like that, but the lack of play these days weakened my play mostly on this aspect)
- josekis

I'll try to explain my thinking the most I can, asking questions when they arise, and I hope receiving answers and hints to improve.

I will only describe in my comments moves that I saw before posting, and not playing sequences of tenth of moves that I couldn't figure without a goban.

I won't use joseki dictionnary.



And now, for something completely different, my first move. I hesitate between playing a common or a weird game. That's why I ask MHO to choose for me.

If the unit digit of the number he'll choose is 0-4, I'll play A (my most common answer), 5-6 : I'll play B (offer a diagonal fuseki, I don't like much), 7 : I'll play C (a move I don't like at all, but that'll force me to think territorially), 8 : D and 9 : E (I love particularly this last, usually followed by another 8-8, but generally I play it with B, and it works rarely well with a turn based game)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . d . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . .|
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm looking forward to feedbacks by stronger players than me :)
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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #3 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:18 am 
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54? lol

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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #4 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:20 am 
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hailthorn011 wrote:
54? lol

If the number is irrational, you're white, otherwise you're black.
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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #5 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:22 am 
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Ok, then :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm2
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Nothing special to say. I use my right to deny a diagonal opening.

I don't like playing komoku as W2, because B can always take one of the two following points, then make the classical joseki :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . .|
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . .|
$$ | . . . 2 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I know both positions are equivalent, but I don't like W here.
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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #6 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This, of course, is to help my stones work together. Plus I have an affection for the right side. :D

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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:39 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


What I'd like to get is that :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , b . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


But if I play 4 first, he can come at B and I already said I didn't like that. So 6 first. And if he plays at a, then I play c, I like this move.
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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:05 am 
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Very interesting move, Tryphon. I haven't seen that before. lol

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


As noted, I haven't ever really seen W E17 before. I know it's probably a good move, but I wasn't entirely sure how to respond, so I had to think about it and play it out on a board to see what I could possibly do. I'm anticipating C16 here.

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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm5
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . b , . . e . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 c . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

He played what I dislike the most :)

A : usually, I do that, threatening D
B : same idea than A. I don't know which is better, since I know maybe 3 josekis :)
C : erk
D : I prefer play A before
E : I don't like it, there will be 4th line stones everywhere and it will be a mess

I choose A, but I'm not happy, because I take territory whereas I prefer influence. But I prefer secure some stones to attack his ones.

I suppose he'll play around D now.

Question : what are the pros/cons of B towards A ?
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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:58 am 
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hailthorn011 wrote:
Very interesting move, Tryphon. I haven't seen that before. lol


Had you chosen 59 at my first question, you'd have been even more surprised :mrgreen:
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Offline Banaan
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #11 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:04 am 
Dies in gote

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If you say "May Shusaku be with you", at least play Shusaku fuseki! :P

For Tryphon, if the upper left is settled:
C17 (a) is a low move, and I think its less good than c16 (b). c16 gives black a bit better shape, but your corner is a lot bigger.

comparison:
A:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 3 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


and b:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 3 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I think the first variation is better when white is strong in the area and doesnt want w to get a good shape. Also, there are more variations with C16
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #12 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:16 am 
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The basic Idea behind the 3-5 point is to prioritize the side instead of the corner. The most common point of invasion is the 34 point with one of the josekis looking like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Black gets the corner and the side while white gets a wall.
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . 6 . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Black :b1: gives a inferior local result and is only played when the resulting wall would benefit white too much
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 4 2 , . . . . . W . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

In this instance :wc: is already on the board so black approaches far and lets white have the corner. Above is the normal joseki in this position and so I would classify blacks play in the game as too timid.

ninja'ed :-|

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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #13 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:40 am 
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Good idea Banaan. Maybe using the Shusaku fuseki can become a signature of mine lol Well, after I learn how to play it, that is.

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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #14 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:44 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I have no idea what I'm doing here, to be quite honest. E17 is quite alien to me. I figure C16 is a good multipurpose move, though. I'll try it and see where it goes. Although I have a feeling it's going to end up biting me in the rear-end.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #15 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:55 am 
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To observers:
hailthorn011 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


I have no idea what I'm doing here...


He is making himself heavy, I think. And he is forcing white to take territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 2 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]


The above exchange seems ineveitable, and cannot be good for black. A safer way might be to simply tenuki, or to play as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


FWIW, black's move might be reasonable if there were no room for white to extend along the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc If the marked stones exist, then maybe it is reasonable,\nfor then the only possible route for development of the white corner is southward,\nand black is in the way.
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 2 O . O . . # . . # . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #16 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 5 3 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . Y , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Clearly this exchange is bad for black as you can see from the tewari, :b4: should be at :w5: which it cannot be. ;-)

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Offline Tryphon
 Post subject: Re: 118. hailthorn vs. Tryphon
Post #17 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 2 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]



It's the first time someone plays 7 in this situation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . b O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


B is the most natural and I can't see why it could be wrong.

But my opponent key point is my keypoint, so I'm looking avidly at A. But if I play A, MHO plays B and can make a base, whereas my 2 corner stones become under attack. They'll flee, but then A can be attacked.

So, B.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #18 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:52 pm 
Honinbo
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Joaz, mw42, (hidden from players until upper left settled),
About the :b7: :w8: exchange:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The above exchange seems ineveitable, and cannot be good for black.
mw42 wrote:
Clearly this exchange is bad for black as you can see from the tewari
Local search, pro games -- (a) 23 games (1680 - 2008); (b) 2 games (1974, 1977); (c) 1 game (1963) --
so :black: (a) is the most common pro move here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . a , . b . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

This post by EdLee was liked by: mw42
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re:
Post #19 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:58 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Joaz, mw42, (hidden from players until upper left settled),
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The above exchange seems ineveitable, and cannot be good for black.
mw42 wrote:
Clearly this exchange is bad for black as you can see from the tewari
Local search, pro games -- (a) 23 games (1680 - 2008); (b) 2 games (1974, 1977); (c) 1 game (1963) --
so :black: (a) is the most common pro move here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . a , . b . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]


*ahem* As I said, clearly this exchange is good for black. ^^ Actually, I still think it is bad. I bet the global situation is such that a wall on the approached side is good for black's development (as is not the case for this game). Can you provide some games for context? Sorry, I often request this when people pull a DB on me!
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #20 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:11 pm 
Honinbo
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mw42,
mw42 wrote:
I bet the global situation is such that a wall on the approached side is good for black's development (as is not the case for this game).
Can you provide some games for context? Sorry, I often request this when people pull a DB on me!
Joaz's analysis was local, and in a few of the pro games, the B move also happened quite early (move 8, move 10, etc.),
so there was no wall to speak of -- here are two:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 2008
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 2 O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 2007
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 2 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . X , O . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Sun May 08, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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