Game 1 from the peaceful Easy feeling 2-stone challenge. Enjoy!
Let's have fun!
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| 131. ez4u vs Jedo http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4295 |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Game 1 from the peaceful Easy feeling 2-stone challenge. Enjoy!
Let's have fun! |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Thanks for the game! I'm actually going to Shanghai tomorrow, so I probably won't be able to post for the next ten days  I play the 3-5 as maybe my most common opening point as black, so I see no reason not to play it now. Sure there are complications, but so much the better  I considered approaching white low and then taishing after he tenukid, but I saw no reaosn to go absolutely crazy just yet.
Acceptable??? Basically, I'm going to partially ignore the 15 point buffer, since if I rely on it too much I think I'll just get nickel and dimed to death. I assume he's going to approach the upper left, and I'll probably respond and most likely gain sente to approach the bottom. I'm not sure what kind of handicap game he likes to play, so we'll see. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Have a good trip! I saw your journal post and it looks like fun.  Let's continue when you return.I get ten days to think about my strategy. 
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| Author: | Jedo [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Clear eyes Full heart CAN'T LOSE |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Ready for action 
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Welcome back!
Basically, do I want to: 1. Challenge Jedo in his unfinished corner in the upper left, 2. Finish off my corner in the lower right, or 3. Play elsewhere other than in the two "hot" corners? In two-stone games, my approach is generally to favor 1 or 3 (I consider 2 generally too slow). If he had played  on the 3-4 point, I probably would have approached the upper left. The question is about his choice of 5-3. I am not particularly interested in approaching at 5-4 when the lower left corner is Black. At the same time I do not want to allow him to close me in with a 1-space low pincer (C14) if I enter at 3-4. I think that the 1-space pincer is the ideal when both the upper right and lower left are Black stones. So finally I will go with option 3. If he answers with below, I will approach the lower left with  . In handicap games, I am always willing to treat the  exchange as a forcing play in order to sketch out a basic shape to the game.
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| Author: | Jedo [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Super jet lagged, so I'll be posting at very strange hours 
Not the corner I expected, since I though he would go for the 3-5. With the 3-4 in the bottom facing that way that it is, the low pincer was the first thing that came to mind. Here's what I envision:
It would be nice to get A in, but I think it's too early to play it now. I'm not quite sure how he'll handle the lower right, maybe be happy just attaching under? I'm considering approaching low to deny white this, but then my stones feel too flat  As a result of this sequence, it no longer makes sense to press white down if he enters the upper left low. I'll just pincer since the left side will be more important than the top, but I'm not sure what kind yet. If white just jumps, I'll play out the standard joseki happy with the 1 point jump at top and my being pushed towards white's open bottom corner. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
I am willing to play here without a lot of analysis by analogy to the counter play against the mini-Chinese. Entering at 3-3 is not particularly interesting since the 5-3 stone in the upper left makes the top less interesting and he finishes the usual joseki with an approach against my bottom right. Let's see what he has in mind... |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Interesting move by white. His move is definitely not a tenuki, since I think it's pretty bad if I play away:
A seems to stress influence and the outside, while b stresses the corner. If white later choses to play in the corner, I think a and b respectively lead to:
Sign me up! The other way:
I'm not really sure, but perhaps white plays a or b, leaving the aji of the invasion at c. White probably needs some back up to do this, but I'd much rather have corner aji than splitting aji. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
OK, I continue elsewhere. In the upper right it is up to Black to show that he can make an efficient result. Current pro practice favors  at O17, attempting to control the corner on a larger scale. The White stone is not dead yet. If Black adds another to kill it (e.g. R15) then Black will have used a net total of 3 stones to take the corner - one more than a normal shimari. Meanwhile  is a ladder stone, making it possible to play Q15 if Black doesn't stop me. |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
I sort of feel like I'm just going along with white's plan for the last two moves, but I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with this way of playing. The other main move I considered was the one space high pincer to break up white's bottom, but I was thinking it might be wrong given whites formation in the bottom right corner.
This felt not as good as the game variation for black.
Knowing wether to pincer or not in a situation like this is something I have trouble with. I want to break up a side, but don't want to create a weak group. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
Locally I think  is thin. Black has lots of opportunities to invade along the bottom and in the lower right corner. However, in a handicap game White has to decide where to confront Black. I want at least part of the future fighting to come in an area of White influence rather than all Black areas. Probably Black plays somewhere on the top next. It is an interesting question how to develop from his 5-3 stone. Something like  below has the best relation with the upper right. Most likely I will invade the top. Neither the upper right nor the upper left are closed in this situation. So White should be careful not to fight too hard and let Black close the corners in sente. If Black chooses the shimari with "a", it faces the left side. The upper left is secure but Black may be sorry that both the C6 and E17 stones are low.
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| Author: | Jedo [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
辞書で訳しないでください |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
OK, Black chose to make a secure, tight corner oriented along the left side. Now O Meien would tell us that the top is wider and as high as the left or the bottom and should have priority. However, it is not easy to see how to start at the top without allowing Black to kill off the upper right in sente (if I invade the top) or build a perfect wall facing the top (if I live in the corner). So I will leave the top and see where Black will add a move there before I react. How to deal with the left and bottom? This involves the boundary between the White and Black spheres of influence. The question in a handicap game is whether I can manage not to let the left and bottom be miai (I get one and Black gets the other). Generally, F5 would be a nice play along the bottom. However, the F3, F5, K4 shape feels slow because Black still has easy invasion points in the lower right. So I will try an immediate D7 and see what happens. If I get the chance to add F5 (or F6) as we proceed, I will do so. If I generally get to erase the left side without damage to the bottom, I will do so and proceed to the top. The above all sounds nice and theoretical. However, the real point is that two weeks ago, I saw Takemiya on TV (NHK Cup) and he use the F3, F5, D7 shape to great effect. Naturally the position was completely different - but it was cool! So... I think it is Handa Dogen 9p that was quoted as saying, "Moves you like look big"!!! |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
I'm going along with his plan for now, because he's making me an offer I can't refuse. This last move is a clear attempt to build his center moyo, but there's two reasons I'm not too unhappy with it. First of all, I'm getting solid points, second of all, his last move has a very loose connection with his framework that I hope to exploit if neccecary. I'm not sure exactly how long to allow myself to be pushed. Perhaps something like this?
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
I think this is natural. Next Black has a turning point. If he tries to separate me with something like "a", I am playing to take sente in order to make shape with "b". I think this is reasonable since the left side is fairly wide. If instead, he plays in with "c", I atari with "d" and after he connects at "b", I consider how to connect/continue.
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| Author: | youngjae [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
@ez4u
Instead of 'a' what do you think of this ?Now, if you want to get a move on the side also, say around 'b', you still have a 2 space extension in either direction. I guess the trade off is black could solidify the corner (or resist with 'c' who knows!) but I thought seeing as complication favours white in handicap games, and this seemed to fit with your written intentions, I was wondering what you thought . Just my 2 cents though. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
youngjae wrote: @ez4u
Instead of 'a' what do you think of this ?Now, if you want to get a move on the side also, say around 'b', you still have a 2 space extension in either direction. I guess the trade off is black could solidify the corner (or resist with 'c' who knows!) but I thought seeing as complication favours white in handicap games, and this seemed to fit with your written intentions, I was wondering what you thought . Just my 2 cents though.Two things really. One, in Malkovich games I feel this (absurd?) push to play moves that I can write seemingly rational explanations about. This does not always work of course.  Nevertheless, I like to keep the illusion alive as long as possible. Two, right now I do not want to start a fight directly in the corner. I think there is too much chance that Black is able to manufacture a wall facing up the left side and enclose it before I can invade. Although in handi games we have to expect to outplay our opponents somewhere, we should still have a reasonable amount of respect for them. Also this is my first game with Jedo, so I have no reason to think he is particularly weak at fighting.  |
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| Author: | youngjae [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
@ez4u ez4u wrote: Two things really. One, in Malkovich games I feel this (absurd?) push to play moves that I can write seemingly rational explanations about. This does not always work of course. Nevertheless, I like to keep the illusion alive as long as possible. Two, right now I do not want to start a fight directly in the corner. I think there is too much chance that Black is able to manufacture a wall facing up the left side and enclose it before I can invade. Although in handi games we have to expect to outplay our opponents somewhere, we should still have a reasonable amount of respect for them. Also this is my first game with Jedo, so I have no reason to think he is particularly weak at fighting. Thank you for your detailed answer. I agree respect for your opponent is important. I was curious about what alternatives you considered apart from the move you played. I mentioned that particular move because I found it interesting. I am sure there is a stylistic preference in the moves we choose. I like fighting very much. I have really enjoyed watching your Malkovich games though, and I appreciate that you endeavour to make them accessible to all. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo |
youngjae wrote: @ez4u ez4u wrote: Two things really. One, in Malkovich games I feel this (absurd?) push to play moves that I can write seemingly rational explanations about. This does not always work of course. Nevertheless, I like to keep the illusion alive as long as possible. Two, right now I do not want to start a fight directly in the corner. I think there is too much chance that Black is able to manufacture a wall facing up the left side and enclose it before I can invade. Although in handi games we have to expect to outplay our opponents somewhere, we should still have a reasonable amount of respect for them. Also this is my first game with Jedo, so I have no reason to think he is particularly weak at fighting. Thank you for your detailed answer. I agree respect for your opponent is important. I was curious about what alternatives you considered apart from the move you played. I mentioned that particular move because I found it interesting. I am sure there is a stylistic preference in the moves we choose. I like fighting very much. I have really enjoyed watching your Malkovich games though, and I appreciate that you endeavour to make them accessible to all. I started thinking about invading the top or the left. However, as mentioned I did not like the idea of trying the top. So I was thinking about the left. It seems to me that simply invading lets Black decide the pace of the game. Again, simply building the bottom with one more play gives the initiative to Black. Can I make Black regret playing so many low stones: E17, R12, C6? Plus I had in mind the Takemiya game that I mentioned. In the end I did not really consider many different plays. Rather I thought about different ideas. The play that I chose is at the edge of the left and The bottom (at least in my mind ). It seems to have more complex potential than more direct invading or building plays. We'll see! |
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