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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #21 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:07 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.4%

Fuego thinks it's winning (barely) for the first time, after a pretty significant 0.7% jump. Maybe it thinks white's double approach is a mistake?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , 3 . . O . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . X . 2 . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note Fuego hasn't given up on the idea of K7. I do think it's interesting how something about Monte-Carlo bots tends naturally towards a center-oriented style.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #22 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:06 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Interesting move. I wanted to push through that gap, but I think then black plays in the corner and I have two groups that are difficult to handle.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #23 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:22 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.4%
Time: 22:42

This has been black's hardest decision in the game so far. Mostly Fuego was split over which side to block on, but it also considered moves in a few other places:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . d . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a: 62%
b: 30%
c: 2%
d: 2%

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . 3 5 8 . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . 4 6 7 . . O . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 X . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Watching Fuego play makes me think my own opening has become too boring. A move like the knight's move cap at P6 or the tennuki shoulder hit Fuego predicts at J4 are moves I would never consider. But seeing them makes me think they're quite interesting and playable. I need to start looking for stranger moves when I play :)

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #24 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:36 am 
Gosei
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
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OGS: daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think P6 is going to be in a strange place after this, but maybe I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #25 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:07 am 
Lives in gote
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hehe i was so wrong.. fuego did play R8.
This is interesting : human common sense knowledge backed up by MC simulations must be specially meaningful.
Here even random playouts seems to indicate that the 2 space extension is the right distance for a life base.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #26 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:41 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


value: 50.4%

Fuego had no doubt at all about this move, 99.5% of playouts went here. Perhaps because it spent less time than usual, the followup sequence looks a bit unusual:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 9 . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #27 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:20 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 2116
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Either way, I think black has two problems, that elephant eye and that loose stone. I'm trying to figure out the best shape, stand by...

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #28 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:46 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 2116
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I *think* this offers better follow-ups. I know it's joseki in a similar position, but maybe black's (bad?) shape changes things.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #29 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:24 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1744
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KGS: greendemon
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OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time: 22:04
Value: 52.5%

A full 1% jump from last move. Not sure what the reason for the big increase is, but I noticed in Fuego's chosen sequence last time white didn't take gote to defend here. Maybe that's the difference?

Moves considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - 56%
b - 21%
c - 17%
d - 9%

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 9 0 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure I actually like this play by black. White can't connect under, and this doesn't kill the corner group, so I'm not sure why black should take gote with :b23: . It does match Fuego's thick style, though.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #30 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:32 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if fuego is being really clever here or not.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #31 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 52.2%

Well, Fuego picked the same move it was thinking of before, I wish I could have made this a trigger. But notice the difference in the followup sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . 0 . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fuego thinks Daniel will switch to attack the lower left corner next.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #32 Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:50 pm 
Gosei
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Wow, really? That move seems several levels below the rest of the moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems clear to me that the hanging connection is worse than a solid one... it is now almost sente for me to capture, and if black fixes it he'll have lost sente...

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #33 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:34 am 
Gosei
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I don't usually post triggers, but this one seems likely enough that I went for it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 6 . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 51.5% , dropping all the way back down to where it was before :w20: .

It's important to remember that Fuego doesn't have any notion of saving ko threats. It will only consider a ko if it sees one somewhere in the tree. So moves like this may just be its way of simplifying the situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . . 9 X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is a problem though: I don' think the :w28: in the diagram isn't as good for white as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . b X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think the atari at "a" really threatens anything, and black will have to prevent the cut at "b". Seems like Fuego is self-destructing a bit here. My personal prediction is that Daniel will capture, Fuego will defend at "b" (possibly making the atari first) and white will take sente to switch to the bottom left.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #34 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:16 am 
Gosei
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The next one seems mandatory, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 6 . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Does fuego think it can kill me here? These moves don't make any sense to me, they're just making me more solid. :scratch:

Respect for opponent is... dropping.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #35 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:22 am 
Gosei
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Daniel- May I ask why you didn't just capture? I assumed you would, so you get a few more points and end in sente. Black doesn't seem to get anything more than a ko threat or two for it?

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #36 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:39 am 
Gosei
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Gah, because I wasn't paying attention and didn't read past the atari... I had a terrible record in casual games at congress, including losing an *even* game to someone I beat *while giving 8 stones* in a rated game. I think at least part of my problem is once they play a few moves that don't make sense my brain shuts off completely and I play even worse. So thanks for the wake up call...

Well, I think black's moves in this corner are still making it a net gain for me. I'd like to say my last move left less aji but I don't think that's true...

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #37 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:44 am 
Gosei
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Well, I think black's moves in this corner are still making it a net gain for me.


Oh, I definitely agree with this. Fuego's burned more locally than you, it feels like to me. Sorry to put you on the spot, just thought I might be missing something.

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #38 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:03 am 
Gosei
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Chew Terr wrote:
... Sorry to put you on the spot, just thought I might be missing something.


Don't apologize, it's the whole point of these games :)

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #39 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:45 pm 
Gosei
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Don't worry, all the rest of the moves will make perfect sense ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 51.4%

Well, Fuego has been wanting to play around here for a while now, so I guess at least it's consistent. I'll be quite interested to see how Daniel reacts. This was actually a really tough choice for Fuego, lots of moves were considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . f . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . d . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . a . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - 35%
b - 24%
c - 9%
d - 9%
e - 7%
f - 6%

In the last prediction Fuego was planning on "b", and in fact only changed its mind after 15 minutes of thought.

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X 6 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . 8 2 . . . 5 . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #40 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: lavalamp
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Actually, that move *does* make perfect sense and I want to think about it a bit more... I think I want to make shape in the lower left. Fuego's opening seems great, I'll try to copy it in my games, I think :)

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