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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #201 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:21 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4380
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 1 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For instance: life is suddenly more complicated for B.

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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #202 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:28 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 92
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
Rank: OGS 8 kyu
OK, how about this?
Diag 1a
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 8 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 3 1 4 9 . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 0 . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Diag 1b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 C O O O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O 3 . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Diag 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 1 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #203 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:24 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4380
Location: North Carolina
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OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: is interesting. I can't pretend to judge this one, but my hunch is that after :w2:, black will lose something important and :b69: will like a wasted move.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #204 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:05 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
hyperpape wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: is interesting. I can't pretend to judge this one, but my hunch is that after :w2:, black will lose something important and :b69: will like a wasted move.


It's awful for black! He can probably not do quite so badly with the atari, but these all look far worse than my suggestion of c8 instead of d8.

Magicwand wrote:
i think this is a point where i have to play strong.
if i dont...i think i am not taking an advantage of my current position.

his trouble is getting bigger.


Sometimes when MW talks like this I don't agree with his judgement, but here I think he is dead right, black is in trouble. Let's see if Araban has any magic up his sleeve.
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #205 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:54 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: AGA 5d
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Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I made a pretty glaring oversight when I played D8, simply:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . 9 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . W . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought this worked for me. :clap:

I shouldn't have jumped the gun with E8, it was kind of a second chance move. Well, no worries, mistakes happen and crisis management is a very important skill to have in this game, so I will try to minimize the damage. I think the best I can do is to sac the two stones and ensure my side group's safety as top priority.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 2 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | c . b 1 3 d . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X a . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's a pretty painful sequence...but maybe this is the best I can do? If he plays a-c to ensure my group has only one eye, then I'll have to push out with 'd' and try to break out. That's the idea I have in my mind.

Conclusion: I should have put more thought into the attachment move I made earlier, it is terribly beginner-ish to make this kind of oversight in a game with no time limits. When I read the hidden comments, I hope the audience isn't too harsh on the oversights I've made :(.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #206 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:03 pm 
Tengen
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Surprised he didnt trigger that atari.
does he expect me to play somewhere else???

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #207 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:16 am 
Oza
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Obs:
I think Araban has not looked carefully here. In the sequence that he showed, I predict that MW will immediately turn at :w4:. I do not see that Black clearly has two eyes on the side and can not break out. Worse, Black has very few liberties so will find it hard to cut and fight. The marked stone is well placed to support any fighting. I think MW will have an excellent position even if Araban finds a way to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O 2 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 7 . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . 8 O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #208 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:33 pm 
Judan
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Kaya handle: Test
There seems to be universal agreement that Araban is in a desperate situation here, as conventional moves lead to a clearly superior position for MW. Desperate times require desperate measures. How about abandoning the stones on the left and going for a better situation on the lower side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . 1 . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conventional responses to an attachment ( hane or extend ) do not work here:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 2 1 . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So Araban can either get a working ladder - which MW will not permit - or a hane on F3.

It is still not a good situation for black, but at least it is fluid and not so easy to predict. After establishing some presence on the lower side, black would have a chance at attacking white's middle/right stones.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 5 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . 1 . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O 3 . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 2 people: k43r, p2501
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #209 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:41 pm 
Lives in sente
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Should you be waiting for the next move, please read this.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Araban vs Magicwand II
Post #210 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:17 pm 
Tengen
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cyclops wrote:
Should you be waiting for the next move, please read this.

thx.
i am already tracking..
i dont mind waiting for him to come back.

i hope everything is ok soon for sol.

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