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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #41 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:00 pm 
Gosei

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@Drewch,
EdLee is trying to lead you to a conclusion, but the two of you are thinking about the board differently and that makes it difficult for you to see the lesson he's trying to gift to you. I'd love to be a bit more direct than Ed, but I'm worried about helping one side or the other ... call me paranoid, if you will. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #42 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
@Drewch,
EdLee is trying to lead you to a conclusion, but the two of you are thinking about the board differently and that makes it difficult for you to see the lesson he's trying to gift to you. I'd love to be a bit more direct than Ed, but I'm worried about helping one side or the other ... call me paranoid, if you will. ;)


@Marcus

I know he's trying to gift me a lesson, and I am very appreciative of it. I am in no way overly trying to defend my flawed view. I've already said that I feel silly several time going with the questions still even though I know they are wrong.

The only reason I am still defending my side is because Ed is getting at it in the form of questions, and then a contradiction at the end to prove it wrong. And I like his style, because the more I defend it and then realize it's wrong, the more the lesson will stick with me.

I hope that I am not coming across as not appreciate or that I'm trying to prove Ed wrong. I know that I am wrong. I am going along with Ed's teaching style for this case, which I happen to like a lot.

I hope my last post was clear with what I meant about the middle being bigger than the corner and sides (separately)

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Post #43 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:52 pm 
Honinbo

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Drewch wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121.
(2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. :)
Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! :) You can only pick one. Which is it?!

Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?


White has 136 Points, Black has 121 Points
White has Corners AND sides. Black has Middle.

Therefore, since Corner + sides = Middle + E
Where E is a relatively small amount of points in comparison to total number of points. I can say that Middle has more territory than corners and sides (separately), obviously not together.

Therefore, my guess would be that middle is more territory, then sides, then corners. But it is either

Middle > corners > sides
OR
Middle > sides > corners

Middle > sides > corners I believe is the one that is correct.

But I am not saying that the middle is more than SIDES and CORNERS together. I am saying middle is the largest of the three.

Follow up Question: W has made 4 More moves. I was just commenting on why the board size was 19x19 and using it to demonstrate the borders of middle and side+corner. Since third line is the easiest to make territory.


<<EDIT>>
I know this whole thing depends on context of the situation, and the situation will never be as I just drew it out.

I also know that I'm probably wrong about the middle being "more" territory. It may be more actually, but I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.


White has made 8 more plays. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #44 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:12 pm 
Dies with sente

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White has made 8 more plays. ;)


Ah Yes, you are correct. Thanks :)

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Post #45 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:41 pm 
Honinbo
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Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
I hope that I am not coming across as not appreciate
Not at all, no problem. This whole discussion is very interesting to me because I can see the different thought processes at work! :)

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Post #46 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:52 pm 
Dies with sente

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EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
I hope that I am not coming across as not appreciate
Not at all, no problem. This whole discussion is very interesting to me because I can see the different thought processes at work! :)


Good :)

I am an extremely logical person also, so I was just waiting for you to play a trump card on me that makes me realize the contradiction in my logic. Then I will see everything much clearer, once my logic proved wrong. I do this because it will last much longer and be a better lesson if I see the logic in it, rather then just being told a "Go saying" that I should think about before every move or something. Then I even know when it applies and when it doesn't :)

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Post #47 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:00 pm 
Honinbo
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Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.
:clap:

One problem with the original phrasing of the questions was the ambiguous (and Go) usage of "big".
You're correct in your last diagram that the entire center (B's territory) had more points than the corner territory (W's).
But that's not the meaning in the question "In the opening, which is bigger -- side, corner, center ?"
Here, "big" encompasses the sense of "urgent" or "efficient". You got the correct conclusion.

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Post #48 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:20 am 
Dies with sente

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EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.
:clap:

One problem with the original phrasing of the questions was the ambiguous (and Go) usage of "big".
You're correct in your last diagram that the entire center (B's territory) had more points than the corner territory (W's).
But that's not the meaning in the question "In the opening, which is bigger -- side, corner, center ?"
Here, "big" encompasses the sense of "urgent" or "efficient". You got the correct conclusion.


@EdLee
Thanks Ed!

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #49 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:33 am 
Tengen

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Ed:
What good does it do to point out a broken shape in a joseki that white more or less played acceptably? (I think he should probably reinforce on the left as opposed to playing on the bottom--but I'm not even sure of that).

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Post #50 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:30 am 
Honinbo
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hyperpape,
hyperpape wrote:
What good does it do to point out a broken shape in a joseki that white more or less played acceptably?
Which shape are you referring to? For example, there's a broken shape in this common joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O # # W . X . .
$$ | . . O W # . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
The one in their game, is it joseki?

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #51 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:31 am 
Tengen

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Ed:
http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=98700#p98700

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Post #52 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:43 am 
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hyperpape,
Same question: is it joseki? :)

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #53 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . B O W . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry, I thought it was Boidhre's turn this whole time =\

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #54 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:26 pm 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O W . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #55 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:28 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #56 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:38 pm 
Oza
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EdLee wrote:
hyperpape,
hyperpape wrote:
What good does it do to point out a broken shape in a joseki that white more or less played acceptably?
Which shape are you referring to? For example, there's a broken shape in this common joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O # # W . X . .
$$ | . . O W # . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
The one in their game, is it joseki?


There are a huge number of variations listed for the position that you :evil: 'd on Josekipedia, and all the moves up to that point are listed as "ideal". I think that's all hyperpape is saying. Here we are at move fifteen in one variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . 9 . .
$$ | . . . . . . 1 8 0 .
$$ | . . X , O . O X . 7
$$ | . . . . 3 2 X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #57 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:53 pm 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . W X B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was being far too peaceful anyway. This move looks interesting to me. :D

Let's see if he's willing to exchange the corner for the outside. This is going to get complicated though which should suit Drewch.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #58 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:09 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X B W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #59 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:11 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2356
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 662
Was liked: 441
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #60 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:12 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 90
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Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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