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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #61 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 am 
Tengen

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I think both players have been posting sensible analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #62 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:55 am 
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[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can't very well cede the entire lower part of the board to me if he jumps out. That's way too many points to just hand over to me without a fight. I guess he could still one space jump into the center and erase, but he'd be utterly baseless and ripe for the attack

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #63 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:40 am 
Gosei
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@topazg

Do you worry that white can build up territory on the left while pressuring your group?

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #64 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:58 pm 
Honinbo

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Was this last move the best play for white? I keep going back and forth about it myself. I guess it makes black's shape a bit heavy, but is it the right way to play?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 1 O 2 O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #65 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:56 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Quote:
Do you worry that white can build up territory on the left while pressuring your group?


Not particularly. I mean, I expect White will, but I couldn't see any other way for White to increase points here. My hope (and the reason for the center facing contact play), as that as long as I keep access to the center, White's ability to do it is limited. White can either build his moyo and allow me to secure the group with some central influence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 The ladder now works ..
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O 8 . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . 0 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll then have a look at the "a" points if I think White's going to get too much, or one of the "b" points if I think Black's ok.

I'm slightly more worried about White playing the hane (at :b57: above) first, and then trying to play to kill - I may simply ignore it if so and run out across the front of White's moyo instead, which seems to be reasonably close to equal.

To answer the initial question, I don't think I've played any differently according to yithril's rank yet :)

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #66 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:28 am 
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[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This feels like the right direction. My bottom group is starting to stabilize. It's stable enough to attack him now.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #67 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:19 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm, that seems a bit thin of him. Either he responds next to my stone and I extend again in sente, he plays a one point jump to connect and I can tenuki as I have the ladder, or he doesn't respond at all and I bend and crucify the bottom position (won't happen :P) .. I struggle to believe that his last move isn't too thin, but maybe I'm just getting optimistic and smelling blood (probably my own knowing my games). Oh well, into the valley of death we go!

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #68 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:23 pm 
Gosei
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If topazg can settle for now in sente against the bottom group, I think we may be getting into one of those "knights move at the edge of two moyos" situations at J13.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #69 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:19 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O 8 . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alright, my group is settled, finally! The reason I played the cap was to force him to play around 7. He's essentially playing his stones on dame points while I solidify my bottom group and increase my center potential. Here, let me explain my thinking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . a . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we compare the potential for territory around a and b, clearly b is the larger area for yours truly. Even if Black controls A, the area at c is invade-able, so Black getting control of a doesn't really affect that. Therefore, the area around a is dame while the area around b is not. When we cap out opponent, it's like traffic control. Steer them towards the parts of the board that aren't worth much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O b . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O 8 . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Biggest points on the board right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #70 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:43 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O 8 . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Also sente I think..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O 1 O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . 2 3 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looks very painful for White... if he tries to extend upwards it doesn't make much odds either, so I think has to connect in one way or another, and if so I'm probably going to risk playing in the top right:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . 5 3 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . W . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can still aim at "a", although sadly "b" becomes a lot less interesting. Before I commit to this, I'm going to do some counting.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #71 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:02 pm 
Lives in gote
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[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 X . X 7 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O 8 . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 5 X O . . . . 0 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


His move is sente. Read it out for yourself.

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Post #72 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:58 pm 
Honinbo
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If :w58: was at :w1: instead of (a) in the game,
would it mean one less sente move for B locally [ :b59: at (b) ] ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O a 1 O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #73 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:04 pm 
Tengen
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@obs:

I'm going to think about this. Before, I'd have played in the top right without hesitation, but I'm also aware that I promised myself I'd play honestly this game, and I have a great skill at dying from leaving groups that are too weak. I also teach "if you have large unsettled dragons, settling them is almost always the first priority". So, I should probably take "a" even though I want to take "b" because it just feels sente...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The thing is, I really must play something like "a", making a semi-connection like this is so huge, especially as his protection stops any push-and-cut aji. It also means the last few moves have the potential not to be dame, and works with the high placement of the stone on the right side. I just really don't want him to play something like "c".

Well, I'm going to sleep on this, and that's mostly because I don't want excitement to carry me away into throwing away the game on a whim. I think Black's doing ok right now, so I don't really want to spoil that. Lots of big moves on the right, but I think this is urgent before big just because of the unsettled nature of the groups involved (mine at the bottom, and his in the top right).

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Post #74 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:29 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, I've changed my mind after all. I did do some counting, and the game seems pretty close, but only if I don't let him expand the left hand side of the board for free. I think White needs to be fairly careful here as there is a risk of counter-attacking too hard and losing everything, but it could still be a complicated fight. My hope is to get yithril to secure 4th line territory on the left in exchange for me getting something (maybe just this stone) and some central influence that could again work to increase the value of the last couple of stones I've played. He worked quite hard to make my moves necessary dame, so now I'm working hard to inject some value back into them at the same time as preventing his accumulation of too much territory.

Sometimes I ramble, I don't know if any of that makes sense to someone else. Please ask questions if I say unclear things :P

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #75 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:37 am 
Gosei
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J13 really isn't even big? Also; O6 shape and not N5?

(Adding more disjointed thoughts to my post)
I thought a little bit about this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 ?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@topazg
Heh, somehow I missed your move. How will you handle white's hane?

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #76 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:11 am 
Tengen
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@loons:

Originally I'd intended playing a bit more deeply, and relying on White's need to connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O a . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this seemed to make for good sabaki opportunities, but I could read a lot of complications because White can get moves like "a" in sente. The problem is I don't want to bend here now (which I did a few moves ago) because I think White can't be allowed to make that moyo too large. This was a downside of giving him a free move by securing the top right, and maybe that was a mistake and I should have approached the lower left. I don't regret it though, as I want to feel happier making thick moves even if they're too slow, simply so I know I'm properly considering them.

I also considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 5 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 4 1 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But the hane at :w64: either makes my reduction ineffective (if I ignore), or creates me lots of problems if I respond. I could try something like :b69: and "a", but it all feels like overplay to me. I didn't want Ed screaming broken shape at me either :P

If he hanes on the outside, I can pull back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 b . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . a . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm happy enough with these as miai points. Of course, if he goes the other way, we're back to the crazy fight, but I think it's somewhat better for me than some of my other variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What to do here though? It's tricky, if I don't extend the ponnuki is painful, and if I do, he can connect at "a" and it's hard to do much with my group other than a very crude push around the outside. Extending feels heavy:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 6 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could think of something like this, but two eyes look ... difficult, particularly if he just hanes underneath. It's hard to recover the marked stone effectively for me. Maybe something odd like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this is good though, it implies that :b61: was probably a mistake. It can be hard to differentiate between kikashi that creates enough aji to play with, and playing the necessary later move first because you know the aji is there. Certainly it feels very unlike the sort of position a professional would create, so it's most likely bad. I'm just a bit stuck for ideas that are clearly good, and I'd rather not get too badly squeezed. The problem is what I really want is something facing the center, so I could even consider:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O b . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 3 7 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 1 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 a a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . a . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X a X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This actually fixes all the cuts around "a", and prevents his moyo getting much bigger, but is it already too big? All the moves at the "b" points become really game changing, and it's very unclear to me how to count the point _potential_ - I could just end up 15 points behind, without much left to catch it up with. Alternatively, I could end up 20 points ahead, without a worry. I actually quite like the final result, I just need to feel less greedy about White's moyo. The ponnuki in the last dia looks typically bad for Black, but it's also conceivable that the influence Black gets is superior. I just ... don't know, too much unsettled everywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #77 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:34 am 
Gosei
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I do feel like wanting to make a new weak group on the left after leaving a weak group on bottom is overplay, though who knows. Guess we'll see.

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Post #78 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:20 am 
Honinbo
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Loons,
Your last var (below): my first feeling, based on B's broken shape alone,
says not good for B; and that's not to mention what you said about
B starting a second weak group on the left in addition to the bottom, which I agree.
Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm61 ?
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Loons wrote:
Also; O6 shape and not N5?
I also think N5 ( :b1:) is better than O6 (a) for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Obs:
If :w58: was at :wc: instead of (b) in the game -- and if still :bc: - :w1:,
will this be a tough fight for B, especially if W has the chance to get (c) or (d)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . c d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O b W O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #79 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:15 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I obviously cut him.

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 Post subject: Re: Topazg vs. Yithril
Post #80 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:12 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The more and more I analyse this, the more I realise it's simply a mistake, and a cut my losses. I should have taken his last point where I either get the reading I'd initially expected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Compared to my lines, this looks fine, or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's no easy way to defend here. I was worried about eyespace but I think that's a baseless concern with his weak group and my ability to connect to the corner in the right.

On that note, I've picked this connection move because I've realised he has no cutting points, he can't break the ladder these stones were initially being used for, and it's a bit thicker for if he decides to invade on the right. Other points I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O a . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" partly expands the moyo potential, but it also prevents suffering too badly from the :b61: :w62: exchange by restricting the moyo he can build. It's one of those important border of two moyos moves - however, I don't think my gain is going to be all that big, as I also want "b".

"b" is a fair standard move, to which I've decided on a non-standard response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With :b63: in place, I am considering this instead of the standard sequence, simply because I think it fits my stones better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . 5 3 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think the weaknesses in White's shape and the additional points at the top don't feel as valuable to me as an extension towards the center working with the bottom wall.

"c" (3 alternative moves) is simply trying to make the most of the aji of :b61: and still perform a good reduction of White's potential.

I suspect my last move cost a good 5-10 points sadly.

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