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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #21 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am disappointed I didn't look at the position longer to consider my last move. I almost played :b2:, but hesitated and wondered if there was a better move. After a few days of sitting on it, I still like this move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Other moves I considered
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c b . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . j . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wrote some explanations on Black a-d but lost them... Basically, I want to tenuki, while playing away from the bottom right group and helping this Q7 group. My intent is to attack White's tengen stone and reduce the center.

Black j invades, pincers, and threatens to connect to the bottom right black group. However, I think White will just ignore this move and play near :b2: in order to seal off the center! I will play this move later; if White blocks at K3, I will block at D3. If White invades san-san, I think the attachment at K3 will work to connect my groups (it's dicey).

Black's a-d are not as elegant as :b2:, but it still has a tesuji (?) which can be used against it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White tesuji (?) against :b2:. Black's right side group can still make eyes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . 8 7 O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X 5 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by uranther on Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #22 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:36 pm 
Lives in gote

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Now I see why uranther took such a long time to make his move. :) In all honesty, I think his choice to abandon the bottom group is correct. I do not see a way for him to save it (although, I'll recheck the variations before making my next move). Therefore, it is much better to leave these stones as aji and try to rescue the other weak groups--specifically, the one on the right. I'll think carefully about my next move, but the obvious move to make is O10. In fact, I wonder why uranther didn't play there himself. Perhaps he does not see the variation I mentioned earlier:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The game is about to intensify. :D

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #23 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:00 am 
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I am facing a difficult decision: take a safe and straightforward victory or try to win in a spectacular fashion by an obscene margin of points. :) Specifically, I am pondering whether to play at “a” or at “b”:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . b O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . a . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By playing at “a,” White would achieve the following:
1. render Black’s bottom group dead (which it isn’t yet, as is shown below);
2. secure White’s bottom territory, denying Black any invasions therein;
3. make invasions into Black’s left moyo very attractive, given that White would not need to fear increasing Black’s influence and the subsequent counter-invasion which could have followed without “a.”

Since Black still needs one more move to secure his group on the right, White would retain sente after playing “a.” Thus, White could then immediately invade on the left, reducing Black’s potential territory by a significant amount. As such, Black would find himself significantly behind on points. Without large weak White groups to attack and without easy ways to encircle additional territory, Black would find it exceedingly difficult to defeat White.

In other words, “a” leads to a position I believe I can win fairly easily. However, a greedy man always wants more! :) Why win by 10 points when one can hope to win by 60+ points instead?

For this reason, I am pondering to play at “b.” By playing there, White would seek to achieve greatness, immortality, and maybe even some fangirls. Whether I play "b" or not will depend, largely, on whether Black can play N10 in response to O10:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Can Black play this?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 2 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and on whether, if Black has to play at O9, White’s 11 is sente or not:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Sente?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 3 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The problem is that, if Black gets away with tenuki-ing, Black can still save his group on the bottom. Specifically, I am unable to kill Black in either of the following variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 4 O 1 X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 2 O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 5 O 1 X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 3 4 . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Naturally, if Black gets to save all of his three weak groups, White will be in a totally hopeless situation.

Time for some more reading :study:.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #24 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Returning to the mystery that is butter tea, the reason it is important to talk about this is that Go and butter tea are alike. They both consist of parts that are polar opposites of each other. They shouldn’t mix but somehow do anyway. White and black stones, yin and yang, butter and tea--it’s all the same, just about. Therefore, by understanding butter tea, we can hope to get a better understanding of Go, as well.

With this in mind, let’s try to fathom how tea is able to dissolve its polar opposite. As discussed previously, the physical properties of the substances suggest they should not mix. Yet, they seemingly do. One theory (and others will be considered in the future, as well) is that the tea’s high temperature is what enables tea to dissolve butter.

This theory can be applied to Go: if you need to make a number of stones of the opposite color disappear, “heat up” the position on the board. Throw in some sacrifices, make some crazy tesujis, and--if the temperature on the board rises high enough--the opponent’s stones may very well dissolve, as if they were never even there.

Now, back to the game. My move is the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The explanation for the move will be provided below shortly.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.


Last edited by The Intrepid on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by The Intrepid was liked by: konfuzed
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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #25 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:46 am 
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Comments regarding :w9:
If I played at O10 and Black responded at O9, then I do believe that N10 would be sente. A move such as O7 would be hard to deal with if Black tenuki-ed:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 4 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's the good news. The bad news is that Black can play at N10 himself. The problem is, once again, the aforementioned squeeze play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 :w15: is not possible, else :b16:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 9 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 3 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although I could play O10 to see if uranther responded correctly, my goal is to make optimal moves at all times. If uranther responded incorrectly, he would likely take a loss (possibly a substantial one). However, a correct move by him would mean a slight loss for me (he gets to place a stone in the center and he might eventually get to capture the cutting stones, and it's better to sacrifice 2 stones than 3, etc.). Such overplays are warranted when one is behind in a game and requires a mistake by the opponent to win. This is not the case in the current position.

Thus, if O10 does not promise to kill a large group, it is imperative for me to prevent Black's bottom group from making life (which, as I mentioned in a previous post, is still possible). Black chose to abandon the bottom group in favor of saving the group on the right. Thus, I better make sure to kill the abandoned group--and :w9: at h4 accomplishes that (alongside serving all the other functions listed previously).

Now, with White having killed the bottom group, Black may need to worry about White playing O10 sooner or later. The question is, however, whether it is bigger for Black to play O10 straight away or to take countermeasures against White's invasions into Black's moyo on the left beforehand. I am currently looking at the various invasions I can make there, so I will write about this after uranther's next move (unless he plays something unexpected).

Before concluding these comments, I should say that White needs to watch out for the aji which the dead Black stones at the bottom still have. Of particular note is the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 2 O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O 1 X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O 4 X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #26 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:52 am 
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Posts: 22
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Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess White's move shows that there was miai in the last position, although I didn't think of it that way. When I saw this move, I wondered if I should have played below :w9: like I mentioned before. Which side is more important?

Regardless, White has taken some nice territory on the bottom side. I will secure some of my own with :black: D3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Some moves I am considering for later
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O b . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . a . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black a looks cool while attacking the White tengen stone. Who knows what kind of vicious fighting this move will cause?

I don't even like b, even though it seems to make things difficult for the White center group. I am envisioning a reaction like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black cuts, White bullys Blacks center group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 2 . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


... or maybe like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Maybe White goes this way
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O 4 O X 5 . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 3 6 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 1 7 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black c and d are just trying to protect more territory. I probably have more urgent points on the board (awkward shaped groups on the right side).

Aside:
While I am enjoying the Malkovich experience, I don't like continuing a pair go game much: there are :black: moves on the board that I would not have made. In the interest of learning, I will try to make the most of the precarious board position!

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #27 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:40 pm 
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If uranther was going to protect this corner, he probably should have done so at D2 (E2 might be even better, although it's more complicated), because it applies more pressure on White's territory--via the monkey jump, for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On the flipside, the solid connection at D3 makes it harder for me to attack that corner. However, I would need much more strength on the outside for such an attack to be worthwhile. I doubt it will come to that. Thus, D3 loses a few points.

An entirely different question is whether the invasion in the corner was what Black truly should have been worried about right now. Currently, I am not sure. I am still in the process of estimating the point-value of other invasions and of White playing O10 (with best play from Black). I'll post my findings and further thoughts in the near future.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #28 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, as far as Black wanting to defend his moyo on the left, uranther's choice seems to be good (except that he should have played at D2 or, perhaps, at E2). It seems to me that the difference between the following two diagrams is about 20 points (which includes a few points from Black having the possibility to play the monkey jump later on):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 6 O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This number of points is comparable to what White could expect to get from any of the other invasions, except the other invasions carry greater risk for White. For instance, an invasion at C12 suffers from the fact that it is difficult to run into the center. Black has a useful highlighted stone in place as well as a cutting point at K13 to aim at:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . B X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O M . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, connecting Black's weak groups seems pretty big, too. With Black's bottom group dead, O10 for White is promising. Even if White is unable to kill anything substantial, White should nevertheless get to place many useful stones. In particular, I really hope to play K13 in sente. This way, an invasion at C12 would become very strong. Having said all this, Black is behind, so perhaps he cannot afford to play passively. Maybe he now has to take risks. We'll see how all this works out. For the time being, White's attack on Black's weak groups continues unabated! :twisted:

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.


Last edited by The Intrepid on Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #29 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Posts: 22
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Was liked: 1
Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 I can't let that Q7 group get cut to pieces by playing at N10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 3 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 I am expecting White to extend and connect up to his tengen stone. Maybe not so bad position for Black...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 6 4 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #30 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:05 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm12 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Explanation to follow below.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #31 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Comments regarding :w13::
Anyone who’s ever done nonfiction writing or scientific/mathematics research will likely have experienced what writers call the “O, sh*t!” moment. Out of respect for the English language and in the interest of protecting the innocence of lifein19x19.com forum goers, I will instead refer to this as the “Holy Excrement!” event. Such an event occurs whenever people find out their argument or research was completely wrong or when the writing or research was already completed by someone else. In writing, that’s not the end of the world. The writer just goes on to add a sentence like “even though so-and-so already argued this exact point, it was important to reiterate this because …” and everything is fine. In scientific or mathematics research, this means the person just lost a few years of his or her life.

Anyway, after making :w11:, I experienced just this kind of a “Holy Excrement!” event. I came to realize that I had completely missed a strong possibility for Black. Specifically, while I saw that Black can play at :b1:, I failed to realize that the simple connection of :b3: is sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :b1:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a O O 2 X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O b X X X 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next, Black threatens to play at “a,” which instantly puts White to the test. Should White play at "a" (strengthening the three White stones and making it easier to capture the cutting stone :b1:) or does White have to play at “b” to keep Black stones on the bottom from coming to life? Unfortunately, White “a” seems impossible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O O X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . 5 4 . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 6 . 8 . . 2 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black group gets at least a ko for life, which is unacceptable for White. Thus, White has to play at “b.” However, Black then has a cornucopia of cutting points to try to exploit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . M O O O X O M X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O 1 X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M O M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In fact, Black can take immediate profit by playing :b5::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . c . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O 3 X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White is forced to connect at :w6:, so Black gains around 10 points (compared to if White played at :b5:) and secures additional eye-space for his right group. Next, Black can play near the edge (at “c,” for instance) to secure eye-space for another eye or run into the center as in the game. Thankfully for White, it does not seem that Black can tenuki. If White plays at “d,” Black group does not have enough space for two eyes--at least based on the variations I looked at, so far. Therefore, White would be able to either deny Black’s group access to the center (helping White to create territory there) or else continue pressuring the two weak Black groups.

Here are some variations which show that White does not die immediately, despite the multitude of cutting points. First, if Black tries to save the bottom group, White proceeds in the following manner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . 3 4 5 O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . 1 O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . 5 3 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . 4 2 3 O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 5 . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Second, White does not need to fear an immediate cut at L5:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 8 . 4 3 X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 1 O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 8 7 O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 3 4 O 6 O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 2 X X O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O 1 O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Incidentally, White cannot play :w14: at J5 as then the bottom group lives:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 X X O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O 7 O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . 6 4 5 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X X O 1 O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 4 2 3 . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the worst case scenario, if Black cuts at L5, White can always save himself by killing the bottom group:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 4 3 X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . 8 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Naturally, this semedori is a solution of last resort. White would lose points (by having to place stones in his own territory) while Black would get to strengthen himself on the outside.

With all of the above remarks in mind, one may wonder whether :w11: was a good move, an overplay, or a mistake. I’m not sure. It seems to me that, despite giving Black a chance to complicate the game and gain around 10 points in sente, White can hope to gain just as much or more from continuing to attack Black’s groups. That said, with the current game situation in mind--i.e. with White enjoying a solid lead--the safest way to play would have been to play :w11: at S6. Black would need to respond to this so, after taking a profit of around 10 points in sente, White could proceed to invading Black’s left moyo. Nevertheless, taking the aspect of risk aside, :w11: as played in the game might very well be a better move, objectively speaking.

This is why I chose to continue the attack with :w13:. WS6 would be an admission of having made a mistake on the previous move and would result in a small loss for White coming from the exchange of :w11: for :b12:. May the conflagration of White’s attack be never extinguished!

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #32 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:04 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 22
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 1
Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm12 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 2 O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The Intrepid: Sorry for taking so long on my moves -- I have a lot going on recently.

The Q7 group is still the most urgent, so I played a large night to prevent getting sealed in and possibly killed. In my last analysis, I expected to play around M11, but after playing through some attacks on my top right group, I realized this group is at least more okay than the Q7 group! :P

G13 looks big, maybe I will play that once I settle/connect the Q7 group. That cut at K13 only accomplishes in getting me attacked, unless I can kill the 2 white stones which were cut.

Soon I would like to make a count of the board. I think I am slightly ahead, but it's hard to say.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #33 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:59 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 45
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm14 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Don't worry about a thing, uranther. I care about the quality of your moves, not about the length of time it takes you to make them. Besides, I needed a longer think myself. :)
uranther's move is good as far the right group is concerned. If I try to cut :b14: from its brethren, the cutting stone will be captured in a net or the right group will connect to the top group. However, uranther's move also allows me to connect my center stone to my group on the right and it lets me reinforce some of the weaknesses in my bottom group. The expected sequence is the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm14 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 8 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 3 5 7 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next, "a" and "b" are miai for White.

I should add that, with Black's right group escaping into the center, White will no longer be able to get any territory in the middle. However, I was leaning more toward destroying Black's territory on the left than toward trying to cultivate a central moyo, anyway. The center was simply too open for my liking.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #34 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:35 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 22
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 1
Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm14 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This :b3: seems obvious and consistent, although I didn't anticipate :w2: from lack of deeper analysis.

I think White almost has to play to cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Next few moves probably like this.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 3 4 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We're about to get into a nasty fight in the center! Of course, it favors White because of Black's weak position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Maybe this way is my best bet
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O 5 7 O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 O 3 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 X 1 2 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w8:, then what? I will lose the two stones as the cost to kinda connect and I think this is okay. But the fight continues..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 I can atari the other way, but it looks bad
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 6 O 2 3 O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 And I don't want to push White into my group
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 8 3 X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 2 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O 5 1 O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 O X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #35 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:08 am 
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Posts: 539
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 45
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm16 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although I ended up following the variation I cited in my previous post, I decided to take the time to analyze the cut at M8 once more.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O M . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . W . 4 O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea here would be not to keep trying to separate Black’s right and top groups, but instead to separate the marked Black stones in the center and to try to kill them. If this were accomplished, White would end up with territory in the center.

However, this idea does not seem to work. Firstly, these stones are immensely hard to kill. Secondly, Black could play lightly with the stones, trading them for central territory of his own. Thirdly, White’s marked cutting stones are very weak and White still has the cut at K13 to worry about. In fact, if Black were to play there, White’s stones in the area would fall under severe attack. For these reasons, White should not attempt to cut Black at M8. The move in the game is safer and stronger.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #36 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Posts: 22
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Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm16 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 1 3 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have to protect against White's move, but he doesn't need to follow up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 The net works
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 1 2 4 8 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White will probably attack my top group's shape or tenuki. I am behind in tempo and it hurts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 White continues an attack elsewhere
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O b . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . a . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . c . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have no idea where White will go, but it will probably be painful!

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #37 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:31 am 
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Posts: 539
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Obviously, the cut does not work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 3 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White shouldn't play at O7, either, as Black can respond with N7, which threatens L5:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w3: tenuki
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While not immediately deadly, there is simply no reason for White to allow Black to have this threat.

The point of exchanging WN7 for BN8 is that White will now be able to respond to BO6 at O7 and not at O5 as before:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O C X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #38 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Posts: 22
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 1
Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 1 3 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Getting cut is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #39 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 2 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry for the delay. I got bogged down by some real-life stuff.
I had quite a bit of a think here. I was trying to make O15 work without the preemptive move at K13. Unfortunately, I can's seem to get anything substantial out of it if Black responds at K13.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . W . X W W . W . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X W C W X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X W X . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X W . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . ? ? ? ? Q Q 2 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . ? ? ? ? . . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . ? ? ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

Black, instead of trying to live inside, would strongly threaten to capture the :wt: stones and, therefore, to escape. If successful, Black could end up making much territory in the shaded area. In addition to this, White's top group :wc: could end up getting attacked. Thus, an immediate WO15 appears to be an overplay for White. Naturally, it is easy for both players to go wrong (especially for Black), so I could hope for a mistake from uranther. Yet, objectively speaking, I don't think the move is the best one available to me in the given position--hence the move at K13. This move strengthen's White's top group (it can run, if need be and White does not need to connect at K16 any time soon, which is a problem in many variations when trying to attack Black's top group). Also, the move makes it easier to invade Black's moyo on the left and it prevents Black from forming territory in the shaded area. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I do believe the move to be absolute sente. If Black fails to protect his top group, it could well end up dying (which is worth 60+ points). In other words, I got to make a very useful move in sente, while uranther is forced to remain on the defensive. That said, I better make sure that my followup invasion on the left succeeds, because my advantage is largely equivalent to the amount of points I can reduce Black's moyo by on the left. However, before doing the invasion, I may first resume attacking Black's right group, if I can do so in sente.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #177 The Intrepid vs. uranther
Post #40 Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:52 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 22
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 1
Rank: 10 kyu
KGS: uranther
OGS: uranther
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 2 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Quote:
Sorry for the delay. I got bogged down by some real-life stuff.

Don't I feel silly! It's hard moving across the country, starting a business and doing everything else too :P

Recently I've been visiting the Go Club in Denver. Players of all ages (15k-1d) attend the club meetings -- each lasting 4-5 hours -- held in a local & organic café powered by the Wind and Sun. Members give lessons over recent game scenarios; books are consulted for best practices and josekis; and games are deliberated over by the spectators and players. Last time we watched a 1d (who has at least been to the 2004 US Go Congress, judging from the shirt) overwhelm his elder 1k opponent. The match turned into a giant fight which spread across the board, and in the end they were trading prisoners because all the ko fights exhausted their stones. Interesting match! Needless to say, I learn a lot every time I go -- and I drink delicious café beverages while I'm at it!

Seeing White's move, I thought the circled Black stone below suddenly looks lonely.

I looked at a before, although it doesn't do much against the counter-attack at x (the fight favors white, usually ending in a split of my group).

The game move is where White might have played to split me apart and attack my cramped group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Trying not to get crushed
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 2 . x . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . * . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


b is too slow and doesn't prevent a harsh attack. I can give up a stone...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Trying not to get crushed
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X 5 . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 4 6 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . 8 X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O 2 . . 9 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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