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42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=702 |
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Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon May 31, 2010 12:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | 42. Joaz Banbeck (1d) vs. Araban (5d) |
For those of you who remember one of the top-rated threads on Go Discussions, me vs Sol.ch, we're going to do it again. Sol, now under the new name of Araban, will have white. I'll have black. There will be no handicap. Araban is 5D AGA. I'm nominally 1D AGA, but under these circumstances I'm a bit stronger. My greatest weakness is time pressure. ( I had played go for years before I learned that 'byo-yomi' was not Japanese for 'middle game'. ) My style is heavy on tewari analysis and direction of play theory, and light on reading. Having an extra hour or two per move if I need it allows me to be much stronger at reading than I would be over the board. I think that I am probably 3D-4D strength if I have a good night's sleep and time to analyze. So no komi seems sporting. We will use Japanese rules. It will be closed book and no database.
In our last game, my honorable opponent opened with a 5-4. I've even seen him play a 5-5 vs Zinger. He seems to like the higher opening. So I read up on 5-4 joseki in preparation for this game. Also, MHO is an attacking player. Last game, I was able to deal with that by using - some might say misusing - my handicap stones. This time I won't have that crutch. So I'm going to start out with the 5-4, assuming that a fighting game is in the offing, and thus influnce will be helpful. There is also the psychological factor: if he considers 5-4 a good move for him, he may not be comfortable on the other side of it. ![]() @Araban: Good luck, have a good game. It is your move. |
Author: | Solomon [ Mon May 31, 2010 12:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Move #2 |
@Joaz Thanks, you too - I'm sure this will be a fun game ![]()
I don't have my Macbook on me, so I won't be able to video-commentate this one. Actually it may pretty much alternate with video-commentaries on Monday-Friday, and text-commentaries on Saturdays and Sundays; but we'll see. Anyways, I think it's interesting that my opponent chose to 5-4 as his first move, which certainly does bring back memories from our first game as I played the 5-4 against him in a 3h game. To a lot of people it's a bit of an intimidating move. I know Sam Aitken, an EGF 4d from the UK whom I befriended in China, used it very well in his games in 2007. The 5-4 is also rich with hamete, and so I, being the hamete aficionado, am pretty familiar with those variations. I also had a chance to get some experience with the 5-4 by playing many club games in Beijing with a particular fellow who enjoyed playing double 5-4s in his games. Despite the language barrier, I learned a lot from analysis of our games. With all of these experiences, I was tempted to play the 5-4 myself in this game to see how that would go. However, there is simply nothing that beats a move I am just plain comfortable with - and that would be the 4-4. It's so simple, yet rich with variations. And of course I have much more experience with the 4-4 than the 5-4, so this is why I chose to play the 4-4. Nonetheless, from the experiences I've brought up and many more I have had with the move, I still feel confident in handling the 5-4 that my opponent played. The hop from 3h to even will make it tempting for me to underestimate, but I think I've played enough games to realize that underestimation is the key ingredient to disaster. I'll promise myself to get this game reviewed with Jang Bi or someone I know who's much stronger than me; this way I will pressure myself to create a beautiful kifu with as little mistakes as I can possibly make. ![]() |
Author: | Violence [ Mon May 31, 2010 12:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Let's get ready to rumble. From my own analysis of both players, I predict the following: Somewhere in the opening, Solch will play a hamete, and get a good result out of it. Joaz will try to take control of the game from the opening, and will think he has a better result, but Solch will also be satisfied with his result. Somewhere in the middlegame, Joaz will miss a very key point due to a misread, and will lose the game because of it. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon May 31, 2010 1:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Araban wrote: @Joaz Thanks, you too - I'm sure this will be a fun game ![]()
Ooh, a chance for a Manchurian! ![]() (Don't bet on it, though.) |
Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon May 31, 2010 6:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D Move #3 |
Takeo Kajiwara, the author of "Direction of Play" has a chapter entitled "How move two lost the game." In the introductory page, he notes that as long as one plays on the 3rd or 4th rank in the corner, it is not possible to lose the game on one's first move. ( I think that I just barely squeaked in on that one. ) He proceeds to analyze a game between two mid-dans, and shows how the second move was indeed inferior, and, with sufficiently accurate play by the opponent, could indeed lose the game. He continues with the observation that non-pros treat the first few moves as almost arbitrary, just play in the open corner and it's good enough. I don't intend to go that way. I'm facing an opponent who is - depending on how you measure - 1 to 4 stones stronger than I am. I need every edge that I can get. The obvious candidates are the two open corners. One of them should be a teeny bit better than the other. But which one? The upper left corner is symmetrical. The lower right corner is not. Let's look at what is likely to happen there. Even if we know no joseki, just on basic principles we can make a good guess at it. Corners are more valuable than sides or center, and so white will want to slide under and take it. If we know a few joseki, we can be even more sure that white intends to invade. He played the ladder breaker in the opposite corner. ( Yes, there is subtle fencing going on even at move two ). One of the common josekis is this:
...which is quite playable for white when he has the ladder breaker because black cannot play like this:
Another common joseki goes like this:
...and continues like this:
If white doesn't have the ladder breaker, this is good for black as he gets strong outside influence, and white gets territory, but white must finish in gote as black can still play 'a'. So, having concluded that white invading in the corner is likely, let's look at the inevitable result. Schematically, it looks like this:
...where both white and black add in some fashion to their original stones. Black gets outside influence, white gets territory. Once we can see the generic shape of black's position, we know where he wants to play next. Walls need extensions, and something around 'a' is needed. For beginners: see http://senseis.xmp.net/?ExtensionFromAWall We now have a direction of play developing for the 5-4 stone. It wants to go westward. Something around 'b' is the logical eventuality. Now we can see that of the two open corners, the lower left is a teeny bit better than the upper right. So my move is over there someplace. Exactly where in the lower left? Well, at this stage, such calculation is beyond me. Reason has run out of steam, and arbitariness has the floor. I'm going to go with the 4-4 because we seem to be going for an influence game, and it works with the influence-oriented 5-4 stone. It now looks like this:
I expect the general course of the game over the next few moves to be something like this:
I'm not sure if I will continue with 'a' or 'b', for I'm not sure how the joseki that follows from 'c' will affect my lower right corner. I would, of course, like to get 'd' after 'b', as then I get a big corner and a strong side. But not playing 'a' leaves him free to do as he pleases, and there is something to be said for keeping pressure on white from the beginning. |
Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Mon May 31, 2010 7:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
In case you haven't seen 'c' before, here is one possible variation that could develop.
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Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 31, 2010 8:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
I don't know if I agree with Joaz's choice of direction. Consider what happens if black gets to play next in the bottom right corner. |
Author: | Jonas [ Mon May 31, 2010 10:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
daniel_the_smith wrote: I don't know if I agree with Joaz's choice of direction. Consider what happens if black gets to play next in the bottom right corner. I think so, too. I dont believe it'll happen because of Sols territory oriented style but f.e. a high approach in the upper left corner seems to make most sense regarding the 5-4 stone:
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Author: | gaius [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Wow, all conventions are shattered on move 1 already. Opening in the top right corner? Not important if it doesn't enhance your winning probability... Nice - and good luck to both ![]() |
Author: | Phelan [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
daniel_the_smith wrote: I don't know if I agree with Joaz's choice of direction. Consider what happens if black gets to play next in the bottom right corner. Wouldn't the below be good, and consistent with the rest of the stones? I don't know the joseki for that shape, but it looks good to me.
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Author: | amnal [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Phelan wrote: Wouldn't the below be good, and consistent with the rest of the stones? I don't know the joseki for that shape, but it looks good to me.
That's definitely playable, but it's also very specific - black is going for the 'I will eat the whole board' school of Go. This kind of extremely high concept opening isn't actually that common amongst strong players (though some strong amateurs do it almost exclusively, of course). I think even professionals known for it, like Takemiya, tend to play a little more orthodoxly. I think the reason for this is that if white foils the plan, it's hard for black to recover - his stones have only one purpose. It's a more stable, calculated way to play to spread your stones about and probe the opponent before committing to a strategy. This is just my own conclusion, though. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Jonas wrote: daniel_the_smith wrote: I don't know if I agree with Joaz's choice of direction. Consider what happens if black gets to play next in the bottom right corner. I think so, too. I dont believe it'll happen because of Sols territory oriented style but f.e. a high approach in the upper left corner seems to make most sense regarding the 5-4 stone:
I also think that the left side is better than the right side. Mainly because the right side is less settled.
For instance, in this mundane sequence, after ![]() ![]() ![]()
As for ![]() ![]() |
Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Everyone seems to agree with me, but for different reasons. What I had in mind was that I prefer this:
Instead of this:
(where 'a' is an alternate place for the enclosing black stone) |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
daniel_the_smith wrote: Everyone seems to agree with me, but for different reasons. What I had in mind was that I prefer this:
Instead of this:
(where 'a' is an alternate place for the enclosing black stone) You have a point. ![]() But I suspect that the difference is quite small. |
Author: | Solomon [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Move #4 |
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Author: | Fredrik [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
Blacks opening is rude ![]() (I remember reading once in a commentary of a Japanese title game, Black played his first move in the upperleft corner. Cho Chikun commented that the pro had a lot of fighting spirit and took the game very seriously, thus the opening move. However he recommended that beginners didn't try it at home ![]() |
Author: | fwiffo [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Malkovich #42 - Joaz 1D vs Araban 5D |
The players can't use a database search, but I sure can. Though ![]() ![]()
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Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Move #4 |
Araban wrote:
My sealed move:
Here is where I go simple. After ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | tj86430 [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Move #4 |
Bill Spight wrote: My sealed move:
Here is where I go simple. After ![]() ![]() ![]() Why 7 @ R10, and not @ Q10? |
Author: | Phelan [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Move #4 |
Bill Spight wrote: My sealed move:
Here is where I go simple. After ![]() ![]() ![]() What if White skips the enclosure and takes 7 directly? Approach the top with 6 or similar? I wouldn't like to leave the possibility of letting black take ![]() ![]() |
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