Nathan,
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| #182 Nathan vs. lesenv http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7091 |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
alright, i'm 9k on dgs, i choose 4 stones handicap.
let's have a good game! |
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| Author: | Nathan [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
Have a great game! I am not too experienced with handicap games should be fun. |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
normally i play the other side (O17), now i want to pressure him since i have 4 more stones. i don't know the joseki, i will play intuitively and concentrate on the basics: cut him, keep connected myself. i expect a fight. else if he drops to 3-3 i will be happy and take some influence with my handicapstones. |
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| Author: | Nathan [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
I am going to 3-3 and keep it simple. Take my territory now, and hopefully he wont be able to utilize his influence efficiently. I expect the joseki below
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
Nathan, Nathan wrote: I expect the joseki below I doubt it.
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| Author: | The Intrepid [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
EdLee, Your diagram is messed up. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Intrepid, The Intrepid wrote: Your diagram is messed up. That was his diagram; I just quoted it. He ninja'd it. |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
alright, i will get my wall. that's great, i am happy. oh, the first guests. i am already eager to read the comments. |
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| Author: | Nathan [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
Uh oh, get ready for sixty posts on the correct refutation. |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
jts wrote: Uh oh, get ready for sixty posts on the correct refutation. Hehe  If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble  |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
For beginners, Reference joseki (B extends at  , instead of lesenv's  hane in the real game):
Some variations following lesenv's hane in the real game:Inferior for W than Reference Joseki (  is submissive):
 with  ):
(B did this to himself with lesenv's hane in the real game AND connecting at here)
Tryss wrote: If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble Not exactly. One can regard as a variation, with various results. ( happens in some pro games.) |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Tryss, Tryss wrote: If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble Not exactly. One can regard as a variation, with various results. ( happens in some pro games.)I doubt a pro would play with an empty board like here  And when I say "black is in trouble", it's because it's very easy for black to play like this (thinking "the cut will not work"):
And here (with correct sequences), either white capture the 3 black stones, or white is outside to the left far better than in the joseki. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Tryss, Of course, if B chooses to hurt himself. Tryss wrote: I doubt a pro would play Pros can be full of surprises: Nov 30, 1989. Cho Chikun 9p vs. Otake Hideo 9p: with an empty board like here ( EXACTLY the same number of stones and just as empty as in the current game )
Tryss, I don't know about your experience with lesenv's hane, so I cannot speak for you (or others),but here's my own experience: About 10 years ago when I was just starting, a 1d friend told me that lesenv's hane is an overplay,and showed me some variations. Later -- a few years ago -- on this forum (with a previous domain name), I even got into a very heated (read "VERY ugly") argument with another member here about the same hane, and how to discuss it with beginners.At that time, my understanding was not unlike yours: that hane is an overplay,and that W can "punish" it, etc. Since that time, I have a newer understanding, from discussions with a pro: it's better to treat the hane as a variation, with various results,which is my current presentation to beginners, here in Post #13. Tryss wrote: ...or white is outside to the left far better than in the joseki. Not exactly. This is another thing I learned the hard way.Yes, this is true at pro level. But for kyu levels, especially for Nathan's and lesenv's levels, the difference is not so big. I myself have lost many games, in W's shoes, after capturing the lone hane stone --at these levels, the game is not decided here: not even close. And it can be detrimental to think of as an "overplay that can be punished."-- That's my experience. Maybe Tryss and others have different experiences. |
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| Author: | Nathan [ Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
The hane is an overplay because I have r14 for support, I should be able to come away with a good result in this corner. I will attempt some more reading once I see how black responds. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
Hoho, this should be fun. Black's hane was an overplay but so is this cut immediately: black s17 puts white in trouble. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
For beginners, Uberdude's hane is a natural candidate to consider (must confirm with reading)...
(proverb: "hane at the head of two stones" -- this happens twice,  , for the two  stones)
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| Author: | lesenv [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv |
hm, i didn't see this move before.
here i have the wall, his corner would be bigger
here you get the outside, i'm small, that's no good. plus he has sente so, i'll take the outside, white can play r15 to connect, i have to think about the next move. first i have to make sure to get the wall. i'm curious whether this works.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
For beginners. Only move for W:
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