| Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7220 |
Page 7 of 12 |
| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I have very little experience with this variation, so I'd like to learn more about it.  |
|
| Author: | lovelove [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
@ The Intrepid & observers The Intrepid wrote: Now the question is whether White will choose the usual--gote--variation or if he'll sacrifice points for sente.
This one is no more joseki, not "the usual--gote--variation". It is considered not enough for black. [edit] viewtopic.php?p=125363#p125363 [/edit] |
|
| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
@lovelove & obs: I disagree that that sequence is no longer joseki. It is a highly situation dependent result. In the diagram you posted, namely an empty board apart from the 4-4 invaded underneath, that result is good for black. The 3-3 invasion is more usually played when black has made a double wing formation from his 4-4 and in that case following that standard sequence can result in one or both of the wing stones becoming inefficient and this transforms the result towards even and then good for white depending on how inefficient black's existing stones become. The example you posted in your lecture series has these wing stones. |
|
| Author: | lovelove [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
Uberdude wrote: @lovelove & obs: I disagree that that sequence is no longer joseki. It is a highly situation dependent result. In the diagram you posted, namely an empty board apart from the 4-4 invaded underneath, that result is good for black. The 3-3 invasion is more usually played when black has made a double wing formation from his 4-4 and in that case following that standard sequence can result in one or both of the wing stones becoming inefficient and this transforms the result towards even and then good for white depending on how inefficient black's existing stones become. The example you posted in your lecture series has these wing stones. I heard this several times from BadukTV. With the night's move instead of hane, black (with 4-4) 1. has better endgame moves later 2. is little bit thicker then the hane variation 3. can consider tenuki Therefore, the hane variation is no longer called as joseki, or played. |
|
| Author: | The Intrepid [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
@lovelove Do you mean the following diagram is not jeseki in general or that it is not joseki only when Black has a double-wing formation?
|
|
| Author: | The Intrepid [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
I expect the following. Then, if this happens, I get sente, which I'd be very happy with.
However, let's go back and take a look at some of the other good choices EdLee had for his previous move. First, the sente variation:
White can tenuki with  but has to content himself with the possibility of Black playing this follow-up:
Second, since White has a stone at J7--which functions as a ladder breaker--White can consider this variation:
Because of the ladder-breaker, Black cannot go for the following variation:
Therefore, Black would have to choose between the following two options. First, he could live small but get sente:
Second, Black could choose to get more territory but at the cost of taking gote (although here, too, Black would be threatening to invade the center):
Another possibility which White could have considered is hane from the other side:
 .Overall, it seems to me that all of these choices are okay for Black. Let's see how the game proceeds, and then we'll be able to decide if any of the above variations would have been better or worse than the game. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
In preparation I was thinking of the hane  :
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
|
|
| Author: | The Intrepid [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
I believe White should next protect one of the cutting points in the top-left corner. After this, I'll carefully review the situation on the board to verify that I am actually ahead, like I think I am. If my current evaluation of the position holds, I intend to play this:
However, if it turns out my earlier assessment of the position was wrong, I will invade:
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think about just connecting at :
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
This local shape is apparently quite rare in pro games -- only 2 out of a search of 50,744 games, and in both cases, the pro move was connect at , not the tiger's mouth  in the game.
. Therefore, .A few things obvious about the solid connect:-  can clamp (a);- can peep (b);-  hane (c) + connect is sente. |
|
| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
@Ed EdLee wrote: However, I don't understand . Therefore, . allows you to safely block at which is a huge difference (about 10 points), basics  Your move is a bit stronger on the top side, but the left side loss is much bigger and a big failure to punish black's order mistake.
Black should have hane'd on the left before on top, in which case the below probably happens. It might revert to this end result, but white lost a chance to improve on it.
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Uberdude, thanks. |
|
| Author: | The Intrepid [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
I expected EdLee to solidly protect the other cut. In fact, I believe that playing that way would have been better. I think EdLee worried that I would be able to reduce his territory on top in sente like so:
 else "a" leads to a ko in the corner. Thus, White's loss on top in sente would be offset by Black's loss in the corner in sente. However, compared to the game, the above diagram would let White have much more territory on the left.Anyhow, I think I was ahead even before White's last move. Therefore, I think that now I am definitely leading in the game. However, I need to be careful not to let White get too much territory in the center. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
One feeling is the double hane. |
|
| Author: | lovelove [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
The Intrepid wrote: @lovelove Do you mean the following diagram is not jeseki in general or that it is not joseki only when Black has a double-wing formation?
Generally not joseki anymore. [edit] With the night's move instead of hane, black (with 4-4) 1. has better endgame moves later 2. is little bit thicker then the hane variation 3. can consider tenuki |
|
| Author: | The Intrepid [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
@lovelove The hane variation still gets played, though, doesn't it? For example, Lee Sedol (as White) played it (and won) against Cho U in the 1st Round of the 13th LG Cup (2008):
Was the hane variation a good choice in this case because of how far the marked White stones are? |
|
| Author: | lovelove [ Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
The Intrepid wrote: @lovelove The hane variation still gets played, though, doesn't it? For example, Lee Sedol (as White) played it (and won) against Cho U in the 1st Round of the 13th LG Cup (2008):
Was the hane variation a good choice in this case because of how far the marked White stones are? 3-3 invasion is rare when the extention from 4-4 is that far away. Well, since it's happened, and white can't expect something lot from extra thickness or tenukiing. I think Lee didn't want to give Cho an extra point from the night's move variation. Still, hane variation is no more played in usual cases, and joseki evaluation are done locally not considering the whole board position, which means something non-joseki can always be played in special situations. |
|
| Page 7 of 12 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|