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Post #41 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:45 am 
Honinbo
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Take your time. :) I'm not home, either, and won't be for a few more months! :-|

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #42 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm15
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Comments to follow shortly.

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Post #43 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Interesting, not expected. Locally, I thought the :b1: press could stay ahead of W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
In the real game, W could stay ahead (for now):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #44 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #45 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Comments regarding :b13::
I had a wide array of moves to choose from. The general idea is to reduce White's potential on the right side of the board and, at the same time, gain points where they are easier to get--the top or the top-right corner. To this effect, professionals preferred "a" or "b," usually playing "a" and then "b" in conjunction. Lee Chang-ho played "a" then "c."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c b . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It was also possible to tenuki, leaving the Black stone at the top-right alone for the time being. The best places to tenuki would be "d"--which expands the bottom moyo and fights for influence in the center--and "e" which would take a large corner and threaten to reduce White's moyo on the right from underneath the White stones. In addition to all the above options, Lee Sedol played "f" in one game, taking the corner right away. The exact situation on the board was this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Black already has the bottom-right corner which could be an important factor why Lee Sedol might have thought it was all right to take the top-right corner in exchange for additional White influence toward the right side.

As to the move in the game, the knight's jump is a relatively new move. Out of the 40 games in the database I could find, 30 of them happened in the last 10 years. Let's compare and contrast this move with similar moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (A) The move in the present game.
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (B) A move popular about 80 years ago, no longer considered joseki.
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (C) A common joseki, with "a" or "b" next for White
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ , . . . b . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]


The problem with (B) is that the marked stone is on the 3rd line, leaving Black insufficient room to do anything substantial against the corner. As a result, either Black gets insufficient territory in the corner to offset White's gains (after White "a") or else Black's influence turns out to be insufficient to offset White's territory in the corner and on the top (after White "b"):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (B)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Therefore, (A) is better than (B) because White's corner stone is at 4-4 instead of 3-4.

As for the (A) vs. (C), the two moves are similar in many ways. In both cases, Black separates White's two stones, seeking to apply pressure against one or the other. As for the differences:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (C)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a W . . |
$$ . . . . . . B . . . |[/go]

Black's first two stones cannot be easily disconnected. These two stones apply greater pressure against the corner than toward :wc:. :bc: is not connected very well to the original two stones, however, enabling White to play "a" in various situations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (A)
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

By contrast, here all the three Black stones work well together and apply more pressure toward :wc:. However, the original two stones are apply less force against the corner and aren't as well connected with one another.

I cannot really offer too much insight beyond this, however. I never played (A) before. Similarly, my knowledge about (C) is limited, given that I either invade the corner or approach the corner from the other side when faced with a close-low pincer. That said, as I was familiarizing myself with (A) and (C), I came to realize that these josekis are best when Black has a stone in the bottom-right corner (and absent White stones there). For example, Black cannot complain about the following result (So Yokoku vs. O Meien (b), 2004):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ . . . . 8 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . 6 . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #46 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:19 pm 
Oza

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@The Intrepid
I noticed you discussed a lot of options, but not your last move. What lead you to choose it?

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #47 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:20 pm 
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EdLee made his move quickly. Interesting. Either he anticipated :b15: or else he played his move by instinct. He had various moves to choose from, however. In any case, what he played is natural and good. I'll take a little bit of time to consider a few options I now have but I will likely play the following move, expecting the indicated sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #48 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:21 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
@The Intrepid
I noticed you discussed a lot of options, but not your last move. What lead you to choose it?

Oh, I'm getting there. :) I'll comment on :b15: and even on :w14:. Bear with me.

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #49 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:23 pm 
Oza

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observers
The Intrepid wrote:
In addition to all the above options, Lee Sedol played "f" in one game, taking the corner right away. The exact situation on the board was this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Black already has the bottom-right corner which could be an important factor why Lee Sedol might have thought it was all right to take the top-right corner in exchange for additional White influence toward the right side.


I think black is fine with white building influence on the right, because the marked black stones are low, so black has good reducing moves to use against white later on. Does anyone else have an opinion?

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #50 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #51 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Watching the Samsung Cup, round 2, Gu Li v. Lee Sedol; with Mr. Kim's commentary. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #52 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Comments regarding :w14::
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, EdLee's :w14: is unusual by profesisonal standards. There are only two games I could find where pros played "a." By contrast there are 13 games with :w1:, where Black usually responded at :b2::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . c . 1 . . b . . |
$$ d . . a . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I am not too familiar with these sort of situations, so the fine details escape me. Ultimately, the issue probably is that the corner is too easy to invade after "a." Black can easily play "b." Another noteworthy observation is that Black can eventually hope to play "c" or "d" with comfort when :w1: is at "a." In any case, the difference should not be larger than a few points (probably)--not devastating at the amateur level. What is also noteworthy is that the sample size of games is rather small. A measure of caution is, therefore, advisable when drawing conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #53 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Comments regarding :b15:
The choices available to me were to tenuki or to play one of the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O c d . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . b O . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I decided to hold off on choosing between "c" or "d" until the situation below clarifies a bit. I believe both "a" and "b" are possible in the given situation. With "b," my intention is to reduce White's territory on the side in sente, obtain a safe group there, ideally limit White's potential on top, and then proceed with cultivating my territory on the bottom. Specifically, the following would be a sequence very much to my liking:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . 4 . . 2 . . . . 7 0 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O C C 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O f . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Next, "e" or "f" for Black would be huge.

:b12: could also be the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 5 O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O C C 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 6 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, these are hardly the only options for either side.
Edit:
I forgot to say that if played "a" instead of "b" (as in the game) I am not sure if I would be able to play correctly afterward. The following has to be playable, but the marked stones are too close for my liking:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . W . . . |
$$ . . . W . . . . |
$$ . . . X W . . . |
$$ . . . X , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

Essentially, I worry that, if I am not careful, my stones on the right would be unable to live locally and, consequently, would become the object of White's attack.

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Post #54 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If :w1: hane instead of :w18: extend, here's one variation where B makes good shape with a series of sente moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #55 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:09 pm 
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This move of EdLee's is surprising to me. Why be so submissive? The result is that I reduced his moyo on the right to the 3rd line essentially for free. Now I'll need to think a bit whether to play in the top right corner or just tenuki.

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Post #56 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Comments regarding :w16:
In addition to the move in the game, EdLee could have considered the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . b . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
However, the move in the game certainly does look to be the most principled one.
Comments regarding :b17::
The move seeks to reduce White's territory to the 3rd line. Next, if I get to play on the bottom at "d," I'll be building 6th line territory, while White's area would remain largely confined to the 3rd line.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . d O . . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . . X , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #57 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Comments regarding :w18::
On the one hand, EdLee's move seems to lack ambition, willingly accepting 3rd line territory. On the other hand, if he played on the 4th line and I cut, I could hope to get important shape points at :b6: and :b8: in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The possible responses I am thinking about currently are these:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , f . . O . O c d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . g O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O h . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

"a" would seek to further reduce White's territory, but I am not sure if it is sente.

"b" would improve Black's shape at the cost of eliminating some of the aji in White's shape. I need to make sure, however, that White actually has to respond at P16.

"c" is tempting, but the following variation gives me pause:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O 1 . . |
$$ . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . . X , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
My stones get cut and the situation becomes chaotic. I am not sure that I would be able to correctly handle the consequences.

"d" is the safe way to reinforce the Black stones. However, perhaps I should first exchange other moves before playing here.

"e" and "f" are moves that would seek to prevent White from expanding on the top side. However, before playing these moves, I first need to understand why either of them is sente, which apparently they are.

"g" seeks to register a profit from the reduction of White's moyo on the right. However, if played immediately, my stones on the right could fall under attack.

"h" is similar to "g" but aims to threaten White's territory. This is a huge point, but "g" seems bigger right now, especially since I already extended to the left on move 3:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . g O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O h . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------[/go]

Therefore, I have yet another tough choice to make. :) I think I'll need to sleep on this one.
Edit:
I've looked up some more pro games with similar positions as in the top right. It turn out EdLee's move :w18: occurs frequently. I was too quick to criticize it. Now I need to understand the difference between the position in the game and the one I used to search for pro games:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . B . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #58 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:08 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
First of all, mental note to self: when confronted with a close-low pincer, double approach the corner or invade the corner directly--don't jump. Otherwise, this happens. I get "influence" which, in fact, is little more than a heavy group of stones one step away from the grave.

Anyway, I managed to convince myself that :b19: is actually sente. This is important because my group will be much stronger after the following exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :w2: can be at "a," as well.
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . |[/go]

If EdLee ignores my move, this could follow:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ . . . . W 5 . . |
$$ . . . W . . . . |
$$ . . . X W . . . |
$$ . . . X , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
Marked group becomes weak.

Alternatively, I could also consider this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O 6 . |
$$ . . . . 5 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . O . 8 0 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 9 . |
$$ . . . X , b . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
This allows me to take the corner in sente ... kind off. In the final position White threatens "b," although it's not sente, yet.

In any case, after either variation, my group on the right side should become strong enough to warrant an attack against White's top-right corner. Incidentally, some professionals in a similar situation didn't care about reinforcing their group further and just attacked the corner straight away. For example, in Kobayashi Koichi vs. Yo Kaei, 2008, play continued as follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . O 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It's amazing to me that it's possible to play like this.

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Post #59 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:22 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If :w1: hane, B probably can get another sente move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 2
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #60 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:56 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 539
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 45
OK, now comes the hard part. Do I tenuki to take territory at "a"; do I launch an attack against the top-right corner at "b" or "c"; do I play "d" in hopes that White replies passively at "c"; do I jump out from my central group to one of the "e" intersections; or do I try to further strengthen my group at "f," aiming at "c" or "g"? :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O g d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . X . f . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Incidentally, in comparison to the usual shape here, the game structure has two main differences. "i" is normally bad aji for Black and "j" is bad aji for White.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . j . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . B . X . . |
$$ . . . . i . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
By contrast, the severity of these aji is much smaller in the game position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . j . . . . |
$$ . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . B i . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Edit:
Another very interesting idea is to play this :b1:, hoping to obtain the indicated sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b5: at "b" or tenuki
$$ -----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ b . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . O 2 O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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