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#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7220 |
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Author: | skydyr [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
The Intrepid wrote: Another very interesting idea is to play this , hoping to obtain the indicated sequence:
My instinctual response here is:
I'm not sure why white would give up the corner. |
Author: | The Intrepid [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
It's a good thing you are simultaneously playing another game, for I sure am taking my sweet time on making my moves. I don't think I properly said what I was trying to achieve with the fuseki I've chosen. The idea was that, after , I would have an extension from the wall I'd be building, while White wouldn't.
The problem is that I almost certainly end up in gote, allowing EdLee to protect his moyo, as well. As I looked through the possibilities, I was not sure what I would do in this position, for example:
Thus, I decided to try to be clever about it by trying to get a stable living group on the right side before going about building my territory on the bottom. However, I then decided to be adventurous and played a knight's jump after a pincer without fully investigating the possible consequences. The problem now is that if I try building my territory on the bottom straight away, my group on the right will likely become weak. See for yourselves:
Therefore, I find myself in a tricky situation that is hard to handle. Well, it serves me right for playing things I am completely unfamiliar with. Then again, I am learning things big time. As far as how to reinforce my group, I mentioned the following possibility, but it fails after the indicated sequence:
The possibility I am investigating presently is the following, where I am still unsure whether to exchange "a" for "b" first or not (in fact, I am not sure, yet, whether White has to answer at "b" or whether White can be clever and play something like "c" instead):
Another possibility I am looking closely at is playing at one of the points around "d" right away. The proper way to proceed still seems very elusive to me at the moment. Good times! |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:14 am ] |
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3, total. I recently took about 30 days to make a move, because I had missed a trigger and thought it was not my turn! |
Author: | TIM82 [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: 3, total. I recently took about 30 days to make a move, because I had missed a trigger and thought it was not my turn! Just as you remember that it's your turn in our game Seriously though, no hurry at all, I'm enjoying thinking about the possibilities there. |
Author: | The Intrepid [ Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
I have a big hematoma from bashing my head against the wall over the past few days. It hurts like hell and it didn't help me choose a move. It's terrible, really. My top three candidates where these:
If the stone in the top-left corner were Black, I would have gone for this:
In the actual game position, I am not confident that such a move would be good, given how reduced the aji at "a" is because of where the marked Black stone was placed:
As for the above three possibilities, choice (A)--the jump into the center--is a good move. I am pretty sure that an alternate me in a parallel universe played this move. Choice (B) is not bad either, but it represents a loss locally as compared to the usual joseki:
As for choice (C)--the move in the game--attaching at 3-4 could very well be a terrible overplay. The course of the game might show that. Truth be told, when I played the knight's jump on move 13, I thought that I was going to follow up with exactly this 3-4 attachment. I thought White then has to play as follows:
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Author: | EdLee [ Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:04 pm ] |
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3-3 seems forced, but I'll think about it. |
Author: | EdLee [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:41 am ] |
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Still came back to the first feeling. |
Author: | The Intrepid [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
EdLee decided not to cut my group. Perhaps the move in the game is better. However, if that's the case, then White has already misplayed the opening somewhere. My understanding of the position might be wrong but I do believe Black to be ahead at this point in the game. If EdLee separated my group, I was intending to play this (although I would obviously think some more about and before playing them):
Yet, I'm not sure that the position which will be reached in the game is any better for White. I expect the following sequence (although I will still need to think some more about --the move has some very good alternatives, such as "b" and "c"):
Incidentally, I believe that giving attari with would be a mistake:
Thus, Black would get an excellent result because his group would now be impervious to attack and White's top side would be ruined. In fact, Black would stand to gain territory there. Moreover, Black influence would be rather terrifying. EdLee won't go for this. |
Author: | EdLee [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I'm not sure how much I should worry about this kind of thing (far in the future?)...
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Author: | The Intrepid [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
Hmm, interesting. I'll need to try to understand the difference between the move I expected and the move in the game. I'm pretty sure I'm going to continue with the plan, but I first need to make sure I'm not missing anything. |
Author: | The Intrepid [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
EdLee played his last move at Q17 to reduce aji in the corner at the expense of aji along the side whereas WP16 would do the opposite. It does not seem to me that the difference between the two moves is particularly big. The move in the game might be better in terms of endgame. I am rather confident that I can tenuki right now. My group on the right is strong enough. I expect the following sequence:
Next, White can consider playing at "a." Otherwise, Black can play there at some point, and Black group on the right would become completely safe. If White does play at "a," then a running battle may ensue. I don't believe I have too much to be afraid of in that fight. |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:43 am ] |
Post subject: | |
For beginners. Locally, blocking with is natural, and up to is pretty much guaranteed for W; the question is whether I want this result, or if I can do better:
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Author: | EdLee [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:24 am ] |
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Author: | The Intrepid [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
Comments will be posted later. |
Author: | The Intrepid [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
Comments regarding moves and . After , White could not tenuki. The following would be unacceptable for White:
After Black has two moves to choose from. The first one aims to fight with White over influence, obtaining a higher wall at the expense of leaving unpleasant aji in the position. The joseki would normally proceed like this, where White can next play "a" (which ends in gote) or "b" (which ends in sente).
Here are two examples that demonstrate the aji. First, White can take the corner because the following fails for Black:
Another example is from Seo Bong Soo vs. Lee Changho(b), 1992:
The other choice Black has after is the move in the game. This move gives Black a lower wall but substantially less aji to worry about. For example, if White tried to take the corner now as in the previous variation, Black could cut:
After , professionals either tenuki-ed or continued at "d."
Afterward, White usually played on the left to reduce Black's moyo. However, in the present game, Black already has an extension from his wall.
At the same time, letting Black turn at "d" seems even worse because it is sente. Black's influence would be too threatening after this:
Hence, EdLee is in a tricky position. Does he continue to push my stones--solidifying my position and giving me 6th-line territory but gaining strength against the unsettled Black group above--or does he leave the situation as is in hopes of invading or reducing Black moyo later on. Personally, I don't think White can allow Black to turn here. Thus, I would exchange "d" for "e" and then either attacked the unsettled Black group on the right or (more likely) took a big point on the left side of the board. As a parenthetical remark, I should like to say that, having taken a look at relevant pro games, I came to the conclusion that Black's moyo on the bottom is not as secure as I previously thought. As such, my earlier statements of being already ahead might have been unwarranted. Ultimately, all I can really say is that the position is very difficult to handle properly from either side. Right now EdLee has a very though decision to make. Let's see what plan he comes up with. I forgot to say that, out of the two basic josekis discussed above, only the one played in the game is viable in the situation on the board. With Black having an unsettled group above, it is ill advised to push White's strong group in that direction.
Additionally, since White already has stones on the right, White may choose to play differently than the standard joseki. For example, White might consider saving his cutting stone.
I'd rather avoid such surprises. |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:23 am ] |
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Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:26 am ] |
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It's too late now, but I wonder if I missed the vital point/direction with -- instead:
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Author: | The Intrepid [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
6th-line territory, nom, nom, nom! EdLee's next move is what I am curious about. He could consider "a" or "b," for example.
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Author: | The Intrepid [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords |
Initially, I thought that I would first make the following exchange before responding to . However, I decided to leave this aji in place for the moment, waiting to see what EdLee plays first. Besides, I am not entirely convinced that White would have to connect at . A response at "a" might follow instead.
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Author: | EdLee [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:49 pm ] |
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