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Post #81 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:05 am 
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For beginners. It's been a few years since I studied with Bruce Wilcox's CD lessons on Contact Fights.
Maybe over 5, 6 years now? More?
Back to the basics: looking at the liberties of the contact stones.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #82 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:00 am 
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This push might be too much from EdLee. Here are the moves I am currently considering:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e e . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . e . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b c X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White's last move is designed to gain even more strength against the Black group on the right in exchange for pushing Black along the 6th-line and for significantly stabilizing Black's position on the bottom. If Black simply responds at "a," "b," or "c," White would have to prove that the attack he could generate above would adequately compensate him for Black gains below. I am not convinced that White could do that. However, Black can also decide to tenuki, reinforcing the right group and attacking White's moyo on top. This would entail a local loss on the bottom for Black. If Black tenuki-ed a move ago, the loss would be very large. However, this might not be the case now.

Let's look at "a" through "f" in more detail:

1. "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . g 1 . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

This move works well with :bc:. It also essentially eliminates various reductions White could try, such as at "g."

2. "b"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . 1 . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

This move is greedier than "a" but leaves more aji for White to try to exploit.

3. "c"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . 1 X X X O . . . . |
$$ . g h . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

This is the standard reply to White's push. However, it does not work particularly well with :bc:, leaving White with a reduction at "g" and possibly even at "h."

4. "d"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

This move is the aggressive response. White could cut, as indicated below, resulting in a chaotic fight. Here is how a related pro game continued:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Seo Neung Uk vs. Kim Dong Myeon(b), 1989
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . 3 1 O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . 6 . . 4 . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . , . . 5 . X , . . . |
$$ | . . j . . . . . i . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Notice that Black would have greatly benefited from having a stone at "i" as in the present game. However, also note that Black has a stone at 4-4 in the bottom-left corner which is preferable to a stone at 3-3 for the purpose of attacking White's group.

This type of play is completely antithetical to my initial plan of playing this game. However, if I can prove to myself that White would suffer losses from such a fight, I might go for this move.

5. "e"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . e . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . e e . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . e 1 . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . e e . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . e . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

The extension from the right group at one of the points at "e" would completely stabilize the Black group and would also make White's influence in the center useless. If I were to play like this, I would first need to make sure that the damage I would suffer on the bottom of the board would not be too great. Here is a possible variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . e . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . e e . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . e 1 . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . e e . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . e . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 8 . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . 2 X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . 6 3 4 . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , 7 5 . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

This does not look too bad, especially since Black gets sente. Maybe White can play better, though.

6. "f"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . k . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

The idea behind this move is to remove aji at "k" after which Black can most likely get two eyes locally. A possible sequence to demonstrate:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . 1 O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 5 3 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 7 X . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . 8 . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
White stones cannot escape.

As can be seen from the above, I have many options to consider and much reading to undertake. I'll have to sleep on it.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #83 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I believe Black group on the right not to be in any serious danger at the moment. Therefore, there is no need to take a loss on the bottom to reinforce that group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . X O . . |
$$ . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]

As for how to respond to White's previous move, perhaps all the options I mentioned in my previous post are good. In the end, I decided on the most ambitions of them. Although I will need to be constantly on the lookout for White cutting at L6, my move expanded Black moyo greatly and it increased Black's influence in the center.

I do not believe White can cut at L6 right now, as this leads to a clearly unfavorable fight for White:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . 2 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . a . . , . . 4 . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Black can next decide between "a" and "b," but White would be in trouble in either case. The marked stone helps Black a great deal in this fight.

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Post #84 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:33 am 
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The big problem with :w32: is I don't know what to do. Dilemma. Will post more.

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Post #85 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:57 am 
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Hi The Intrepid, sorry, no internet access until this Sunday Jan 13,
plus busy projects in real life right now -- will try to post soon. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #86 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 am 
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No worries. I got things to do. :)

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Post #87 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:58 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm32
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #88 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:01 am 
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Hmm... :w32: is very difficult for me.
I don't know how to judge the following continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I also don't know how to judge the following... seems it's even better for B?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #89 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:32 am 
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:shock: What a move! I'm not sure how to respond to it, yet. Perhaps I should simply protect the cut. :?:

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #90 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm33
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I was also considering the following move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 1 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
However, this would leave behind a great deal of aji associated with the cut at "a," letting White play moves such as "b" in sente.

I am curious to see what EdLee's plan is. Does he intend to follow up his last move with the following sequence?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . c 3 1 d . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 2 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This way, White would get greater influence in the center. However, the sequence is gote and leaves behind cutting points at "c" and "d." Moreover, thanks to the marked Black group, White's influence in the center has a limited value--as long as I don't let the marked Black group become too weak, of course. Thus, at least for the moment, I am unafraid of the indicted sequence.

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Post #91 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:09 am 
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First feeling:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #92 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm34
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #93 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:34 am 
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Seemsthe only move.

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #94 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:32 am 
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OK, as expected. Now I need to think whether White's move is sente right now, or not. If I let, White capture the Black stone at L7, White will get a great shape in the center. However, the cost of this would be two moves. Is the ponuki + removal of bad aji in the White group worth losing two moves in this position? It's a difficult question because the value of thickness is hard to evaluate.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b2: tenuki, :b6: tenuki
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 5 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #95 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:39 am 
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Hey, Ed, would you prefer that I make moves and write about these moves in separate comments? Personally, I do not click "quote" to make moves but simply use the "click here to show diagram code" option and copy-paste the code in my response. However, if you do, it's not a problem for me to accommodate you.

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Post #96 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:56 pm 
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The Intrepid, it's no problem -- I am super careful with the Quote button.
In general, I assume any post that is not mine has a hidden comment,
so by default I do not Quote unless I'm sure the post has no hidden comments.

Usually, my procedure is I Quote my last move, then add your latest move, then add my current move. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords
Post #97 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:04 am 
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OK, great! I prefer to have hidden comments together with my move rather than have them separately. This way, as I'm writing the explanation for the move, I have the ability to correct myself in case I discover the move to be a mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm35
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I do not know whether cutting off the stone at J7 would have been objectively stronger than the move in the game or not. If Black were to capture the stone (which is likely), Black would get a very large amount of territory.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . B . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c c . B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a 4 C . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 2 O C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 1 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, the marked Black group would become very weak, as well. White could next consider pushing once more at "a," or attacking the weak Black group at "b" or "c." The group might end up being short on eyes locally--and there wouldn't be too many places where the group could run to, so saving the group could prove difficult. Moreover, White could also decide to let Black live small in exchange for a big wall around "c." This would give White a very big moyo.

Therefore, to conclude, while separating the stone at J7 looks very big, the resulting position would be chaotic and the outcome uncertain. I'm curious to know how the resulting fight might have turned out, but this matter will have to wait until EdLee and I review the game.

Instead, with :b35:, I decided to return to the original conception for this game. My initial thought was to play a calm game, avoiding unnecessary complications. Even though I veered away from this idea by playing experimental josekis and offering White at least two chances to initiate complicated fights, I will now return to the original plan. With this in mind, here's what I plan to do:

#1: make Black group on the right impervious to attack. Once this group is alive, I can invade the top side without fear and I can severely hamper any attempts by White to build a large moyo in the center.

#2: approach the top-left corner (at C14) and play other big points on the left side of the board. Currently, the left side is the biggest unoccupied area on the board, so playing there is very big for either player.

#3: invade the top, extend toward the center from the group on the right, or make a shimari at the bottom-left corner, depending on the situation.

#4: take the bottom-right corner.

To illustrate the first two points, the following is what might happen next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . 5 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 4 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #98 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:14 am 
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A first feeling is the atari :w1::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 1 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #99 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #100 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:36 am 
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Variations for :b33::
Very broken shape for W, and I'm not sure of the result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var 1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 3 X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Also not sure of this result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var 2
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W 1 X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Similar to the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var 3
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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