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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:07 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
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KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I play towards the corner, lovelove gets to play the beginnings of a moyo on the bottom side. Let's not give him that chance.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #22 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:48 am 
Tengen
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I'd probably take the corner :P

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . b . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X 5 . . . . c . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And take sente for "a" or "b" if White plays to the bottom side. If he doesn't, "c" seems pretty annoying, and "d" is a nice enough followup if White defends on the lower right side ("e" being pretty severe if he doesn't) - Either way, it seems to keep the flow of the game in Black's hands. I don't think White can omit the hane, because this is pretty broken shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 O x O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x O x . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #23 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:51 pm 
Lives in gote

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Rank: Tygem 5 Dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move forces black to play D2 hane or extension somewhere from F3. So I can have sente.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #24 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:56 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Must extend from my group.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #25 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:07 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 604
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . 7 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


preventing G5 attachment

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #26 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:09 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 8 . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Gotta just play simple. No need to get fancy.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #27 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Locally the only haengma, but he'll have chance to play either top or left side

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #28 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:34 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could also have played C11, but the top is a wider area to play in. I'll have to watch my row of three stones on the 6th line. Hopefully I can use them effectively.

On a side note, R3 is still open. Eventually, I think I want to play there.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #29 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:20 pm 
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For beginners
So far the main problem with Marcus's play is that he has played two moves that don't affect any of White's groups. In reverse, it will soon be White who is pressuring Black -- with moves such as B and C. Black should try to play moves such as A, keeping the initiative and limiting White's options in the area where two groups can be pressured. Once White gets to expand to B and pressure Black, then he has seized the initiative and been allowed a wider game. And this is almost always a bad sign in a handicap game.

In handicap games it's very important to try and play moves that narrow the opponent's options and widen yours. In such a large handicap, simply playing moves that indirectly threaten an attack (or followup) is good enough. A direct attacking, such as D, is for when you are behind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Y . . . . . Y . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . d . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . a . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or earlier, a move such as :b12: cutting White no slack for trying to play a fast opening:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm12 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basically, try to keep playing moves that affect the opponent's groups. The pressure will help you keep the initiative and give you more free moves in the long-run. Before long you'll have a won game.


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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #30 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time to invade!

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #31 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:41 am 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The attack begins. Seems heavy to try and push from the bottom, so I'll play from the top.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #32 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:59 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He has too much solid territory. It's a hard game for me :grumpy: .

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Post #33 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:58 am 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again, I'm choosing to play solidly. The hane at D13 was also an option, but this doesn't even give White the option of the cross cut to complicate things.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #34 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:50 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is overplay, but will he punish this one properly?

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #35 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:45 am 
Tengen

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R14?

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #36 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:15 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have several options available to me locally:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . c 5 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first instinct is to play the simple hane at 'a'. Problem is, this feels very passive. White gets a decent group like so, eating into my right side and gaining influence towards the center:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 0 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The clamp at 'b' looks nice, but I have to figure out what happens when lovelove descends towards the side. Bearing in mind that G7 is already a ladder breaker.

G7 is the reason I'm not really considering the direct cut at 'c'.

'd' makes good shape with Q9, and I like that ... but it also feels slack. My reading here is terrible (man, I feel weak just looking at this), but I could imagine a sequence like this (terrible for Black):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . 9 X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm leaning towards 'b'. I've been experimenting with clamps ever since I studied the following 3-3 invasion sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :w11: at :wc:
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . W . . . . .
$$ | . 7 1 3 4 9 . . . .
$$ | . 5 2 X 0 . . . . ,
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


The above is such an interesting position, in that if both players play what (I think) is considered optimal, the only difference from the typical 3-3 invasion is that Black has wasted aji that he could have used later. That being said, I rarely see both players play as above. Usually in the above scenario, I've almost ALWAYS seen Black descend ( :b10: @ :wc: / :w11: )and get punished for it with the cut ( :w11: / :wc: @ :b10: ).

All that aside, here's what might happen in THIS game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm26 :b36: at :bc:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . B O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 1 7 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 8 . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That seems a bit optimistic, though. Watch how lovelove punishes me for being clever. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #37 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:11 pm 
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The overplay is actually not that easy to punish:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Generally if my opponents actually play the hane I don't have much trouble (if they don't know the hane's wrong, they tend to butcher the subsequent fight too), but I must admit I don't fully know the punishment despite having played against that hane hundreds of times XD

In this game, though, with the support on top and right side I think it will be very hard for white.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #38 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:19 am 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


R14 is a mistake, now I have a very good position to start a fight.

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Post #39 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:27 am 
Honinbo
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I think B got tricked into replying the UR corner.
B should get the hell out with (something like) :b1: and attack W's very thin 2 stones on the left:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
My feeling is Lovelove meant :w25: = :wc: an overplay in the sense that W
really should've closed B with something like :w1: instead of :wc: --
and not in the sense that there is an easy way for B to reply to :wc: (but we'll find out soon enough):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Locally in the UR, perhaps :b1: is better than the clamp :b26::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

For beginners. Notice the common mistake: B forgot about the lower left corner (urgent),
and could not peel his eyes off :w25: -- instead, look at the whole board.

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 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #40 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:47 am 
Tengen

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Ed, there's a nice discussion of this move on Sensei's (http://senseis.xmp.net/?BQM15). It's a mistake locally, though a very difficult one to respond to. Though perhaps you're right that it would be better to play in the lower left. It's hard for me to say--the upper right can turn out very well for Black if he can handle the difficulties.

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