We are playing an even game with 6.5 komi, Japanese rules.
Nigiri:
Have a good game!
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| #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7348 |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
We are playing an even game with 6.5 komi, Japanese rules. Nigiri:  Have a good game!
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
I'll guess even. |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Phelan wrote: I'll guess even. Cool. Guess I'll take Black. Prisoners: none
Have a good game!  I think I'll take my usual sanrensei, unless he plays a 3-4 instead of two 4-4s. Will see how I feel about it then. |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
My opponent has chosen an advanced move. So advanced, in fact, that Japanese masters played for centuries without seeing its value as a first move. Then some genius like Go Seigen (or maybe the equivalent of his graduate students ) comes along and tries it an now everyone thinks it's simple. But really, what can one do but despair?I'll play a move that allows black some choices, just to see what black will try. With this move, black can choose either a parallel or diagonal opening, or even approach  .For DDK: is the correct direction of play. Kajiwara wrote a curmudgeonly chapter on it in his book by that title, saying something like "White 2 lost the game." The point is that if is the other 3-4 point, black has an approach at  now or later and that coordinates too well with black's 1st move on the 4-4 point:Bad direction for white.
I don't think at my level in the wrong direction would lose the game, but why not get it right? |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Interesting. I didn't expect this 3-4. Is he trying to get me to play diagonal fuseki? This 3-4 seems weird, though. I think there was something about "Move 2 lost the game"? Not sure if this was the exact move, but it does seem in the wrong direction. For now, I think I'll go on with sanrensei. Not sure if he's read my posts and knows I play it, but I don't think I mind it either way. By the way, for those at home, feel free to ask questions, since I might not be explaining things at DDK level yet, which is my intention, since that's what dumbrope intended to. |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Prisoners: none
Ah, Black has decided to make the Nirensei. White has a lot of choices here, and I'll cover some of them. The first thing to think about is what black wants. The answer is: I don't know yet. Black may want to make a sanrensei with 'h' regardless of what white does. Frankly, I don't like playing against the sanrensei, but there is not much to do to really prevent it. But let's talk about what I could do if I wanted to prevent it. I could play the wedge of 'a' to prevent black's sanrensei. Prisoners: none
But I'm not sure of that's kiai or defeatism. Black can take 3 corners this way, so I don't think it's worth it. More reasonable is this: Prisoners: none
Here, the idea would be to let black make the sanrensei, but then  makes a really good formation for white that white usually doesn't get a chance to make. The problem is that black will usually approach  because it's good direction of play for black. It's still playable for white, but I don't like it. White could also play , 'a' or 'b' instead of with the same idea of trying to encourage black to approach rather than making a sanrensei. Now, even if black does that, depending on the joseki that comes out, black could try to play for sente and go back and make a sanrensei.As for the following, this 3-3 and 3-4 combination is something Sakata played quite a bit. It used to be one of my favorite openings as white, too. The problem is I lost most of my games as I am not Sakata. I really shouldn't let that discourage me. Another reason not to play it that is slightly better is that pros don't really play this so much any more, so it's harder to get new pro games to learn from. Black can play the sanrensei or approach white's 3-4 point. White will probably try to make black work hard to pay komi. Prisoners: none
Here's a common idea: Prisoners: none
I don't have a problem playing this way. If black makes a senrensei, I can close the corner at 'a' even play the Chinese opening in a kind of moyo-to-moyo battle. If black approaches instead of playing sanrensei, I would probably pincer. In the game move, I am just being consistent with territorial style and choose the direction so that black dosen't have expanding approaches from his two star points. |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Thought process: Hmm. I wonder if he opens like this usually, or if he's trying to draw me out of sanrensei. I feel tempted to leave my two corners as is, and approach one of his. The way I see it, if I insist in sanrensei, this could happen: Prisoners: none
Not very sure about  . In fact, I might be completely wrong about the rest of the sequence, since it very much depends on his intentions, and if mine change.I usually feel comfortable playing high moves, in a more moyo type style. When I was younger/weaker, it was because I perceived moyos as potential territory, now it's more due to perceiving them as strength(or as me having the choice of battlefield). So the line I just showed appeals to me. I'm not sure if he's getting better compensation, however. Solid territory is usually big. Another move I'm considering is this: Prisoners: none
Again, this has many possible deviations, but I don't like it as much since it seems to leave me in a weaker position. Possible approaches to 3-4s: 5-4
Not that bad, but I still see a lot of possible deviations that I might not be expecting. Prisoners: none
I'm not even sure what is the proper response to this approach, or even if it is correct. Maybe 'a'? He seems to get the better of it. I think I'll go with sanrensei, which I'm comfortable with, and react to what he plays. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:54 am ] |
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( For beginners. ) Phelan wrote: This 3-4 seems weird, though. I think there was something about "Move 2 lost the game"? No. No problem with Not sure if this was the exact move, but it does seem in the wrong direction. .dumbrope wrote: I don't think at my level Correct. in the wrong direction would lose the game |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Okay now there are some stones on the board. Are there any weak groups? No. Okay, where's the biggest move? Usually, making an enclosure from one of the 3-4 points is the next thing to do after occupying a corner, but there are two of them, so in some sense they can be considered miai. Black probably cares more about developing moyo, so it might go like this: Prisoners: none
Now, that's actually playable for white---I'm pretty sure O Meien shows this kind of position in one of his books---but wow, doesn't black look big? Of course, white only has himself to blame by taking two "slow" asymmetrical moves to black's "fast" symmetrical ones. Do I dare? I have another idea, but I'll have to think about it, and that is to approach black first. The idea is to see if black will accept white getting a Kobayashi-style formation: Prisoners: none
Of course, black has other choices besides  , like pincering. It's a more open game than the 1st diagram. |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
It is a tough decision. The approach I described in my previous post is the way I usually play, to try to be active and complicate the opening. I don't get to play much anymore as I have a young child, so really I have to learn the most from each game. By playing as above, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and setting myself up for a situation where I may have to sabaki (manage weak groups). I will attempt do that and will make terrible, pathetic mistakes as usually I have an attacking style. When I try to make light groups it always looks like nonsense. I would be very grateful if stronger players help me with your comments in these areas, which of course I'll read after the game is complete. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:59 pm ] |
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dumbrope, dumbrope wrote: sabaki (manage weak groups) sabaki does not equal managing weak groups, although managing weak groups could be part of it. |
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| Author: | Phelan [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
I think I've covered this in my previous post. I don't feel like deviating from my previous plan at this point. |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Shouldn't  be on the fourth line ideally here or am I missing something? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Boidhre, Boidhre wrote: Shouldn't Both OK, different meanings, no problem. be on the fourth line ideally here or am I missing something? |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Okay, so black took the low extension instead of the high one. My feeling is that this reduces the value of a white move at 'b', but also allows a white reduction at 'a'. It makes it tempting to invade at 'c'. But I think the top side is the biggest now. White's marked stone is low and same color as the upper left 3-4 point. On the top, black can make a second double wing. I also considered playing like directly. There is no pincer that way and black is almost obligated to approach the upper left. But I don't like to order my opponent around that way, so I'm leaving some choices. I guess leaving choices is also related to not making a second enclosure with  , which I still think is playable. So maybe I changed my mind.Prisoners: none
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| Author: | Phelan [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Ok, so he seems to not like the line I posted previously. Can't blame him. Although he gets a lot of territory, it's kinda passive. There's usually two responses to this approach: Prisoners: none
'a' is the passive reply, when you don't feel there is support for your 4-4, or you want something in that corner. 'b' is the agressive pincer, which doesn't get you a good result without support from other stones, since you have to play on both sides. 'a': passive
This would get him a much better result than me, I think Agressive seems like a better alternative, but there is a trick here: 'b': aggressive
 is the trick. The reason he is approaching my stone is not to attack it, or to reduce my claim there, but it is instead to put a complementary stone on the top side, that he can then use to make his moyo work. might not live, but it can still be used.What I usually play in these ocasions, is a space away: Space away
This means that the simple one point jump out doesn't work quite the same way. The best response to this is to invade the corner, or to approach from other side. I've seen a lot of replies to this, since I like to play it. The problem with this compared to the normal agressive reply, is that if there is a corner invasion in the previous case, you can connect both stones. With this one, you can't. It will be split, so it needs to either be sacrificed, or live on its own. So this is what I'll play. |
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| Author: | dumbrope [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Prisoners: none
Interesting. A fashionable pincer, but I usually see it in a different context. In the following opening the pincer of  is now popular:Prisoners: none
is the actual game is a consistent territorial choice, but there are so many others. White can double approach with , but if black plays the strong move of , there will be a huge fight:Prisoners: none
Jumpinng is possible, but because black's pincer is not at 'a', white can't press at 'b' after and get a common joseki. Maybe that is why black chose those two-space low pincer. However, there is another plan in the case of the sanrensei. White can try something like this because the /  exchange is usually possible. However, because this exchange gives black territory, the counterattack has to have some value to it. There may be a better way than the diagram below. (I don't want to play  at  ---that's a crazy running fight, but maybe stronger players can comment on this one. I really almost took the jump, seeking this result. I don't know whether it is good or bad for black or even if black would play another way.  is big, but maybe the whole thing is too soft on black. I just can't judge. Maybe in this variation, if  directly, white doesn't need to have made the / exchange. It is this kind of confusion that is why I did not play the jump.)Prisoners: none
For DDK: I should have mentioned this before, but the reason I approached from the outside with in the game is that this inside approach is generally considered an overplay. Black gets an easy attack because the marked black stone can be used effectively. You can see this discussed in lovelove's series on L19 titled "How to Become a Dan"Prisoners: none
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| Author: | skydyr [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
Phelan wrote: What I usually play in these ocasions, is a space away: Space away
This means that the simple one point jump out doesn't work quite the same way. The best response to this is to invade the corner, or to approach from other side. I've seen a lot of replies to this, since I like to play it. The problem with this compared to the normal agressive reply, is that if there is a corner invasion in the previous case, you can connect both stones. With this one, you can't. It will be split, so it needs to either be sacrificed, or live on its own. So this is what I'll play. In this situation, where black is trying to build a large moyo from the san-ren-sei, if black is going to pincer, it should really be a high pincer that complements the other high stones. A low pincer invites white to build influence that will negate the influence black is trying to build. With a white stone on the third line in the top left corner, black is also not going to get much out of a group that gets built here in terms of territory, and sacrificing a stone so early during fuseki is often disadvantageous. In addition, the earlier move on the bottom probably should have been high for consistency as well, as white can cap it pretty easily to keep black pressed down. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #189 - dumbrope vs. Phelan |
dumbrope wrote: Jumpinng is possible, but because black's pincer is not at 'a', white can't press at 'b' after and get a common joseki. Maybe that is why black chose those two-space low pincer. However, there is another plan in the case of the sanrensei. White can try something like this because the / exchange is usually possible. However, because this exchange gives black territory, the counterattack has to have some value to it. There may be a better way than the diagram below. (I don't want to play at ---that's a crazy running fight, but maybe stronger players can comment on this one. I really almost took the jump, seeking this result. I don't know whether it is good or bad for black or even if black would play another way. is big, but maybe the whole thing is too soft on black. I just can't judge. Maybe in this variation, if directly, white doesn't need to have made the / exchange. It is this kind of confusion that is why I did not play the jump.)Prisoners: none
To my eye, this plan looks fantastic for white. This is another very related idea: Prisoners: none
If black tries to come out with 8, white can make a corner enclosure and then fight. Either way, black's moyo plan is ruined by white's influence. I'm also not certain that the exchange is good. It's possibly aji-keshi. |
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