This game will be played open book and database with japanese rules and a 6.5 komi.
It is an even game so here is the nigri
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| #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7602 |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
This game will be played open book and database with japanese rules and a 6.5 komi. It is an even game so here is the nigri  |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I guessed wrong, so I guess Its your move. At Lease I don't have to go find the diagram template anywhere  Have a good game! |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
Good game and have fun!
I like the flexibility of the hoshi. It lets me see what  is and then form my plan. As such my next post should be somewhat more detailed. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
Normally I would respond at D16 because I read somewhere that that is the "best" move as far as pro win rates. But then I thought "I am not a Pro" so that doesn't make much sense. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I don't think if I've ever encountered an approach to my first move when it is on a hoshi.
a and b are exact points whereas c and d are representing a play in those corners.
I would most likely pick another hoshi if playing in the upper left. But it makes it harder to build anything along the top side with on the board. On the other hand it forces white into a more territorial game. White would need to be on the outside at b in order to build any kind of framework. I don't like how  leaves only one urgent point on the board, the re approach at b.for beginneres
b would be an urgent move do to the nature of the 4-4 point. A 4-4 point settles the corner in one move because it has two directions of expansion. Therefore if it is approached on one side it has miai to take the other. So white a, black b. However this means when the 4-4 is approached it is important to respond somehow, and is therefore urgent. returning to the diagram about choice d, this makes a more attractive. Since finishing an enclosure from a 3-4 point is also somewhat urgent, there would then be two urgent moves on the board and both sides are able to take one. Assuming we ignore plays in the empty corners(which could be good options). As to playing in the lower left corner(c). I just don't feel like playing there. Nothing strikes me as interesting, but I don't see any reason playing there would be bad.
This move is attractive to me. I like the option of setting up a nirensei at b next. If white played in that corner himself I'd probably go back to responde to with c.
This feels like it could be called honte. It prevents whites double approach and stabilizes my stone. White still owes one more move unless will be treated lightly. This is the move I finally decided on so what is white likely to do? I think a and b are most likely, as is most likely a probe to see how black wants to play. If white plays a I will take b. If he plays b however I'm going to take c and play for territory |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
 is another surprise.
I'm familiar with white backing off at a. This is good if white has a low position in the upper left. So this move feels like a faster version of that idea.
With the board as it is a is a very interesting point for black, a checking extension on whites group. Coupled with the fact that white needs a position in the upper left corner to get the most out of that makes it the most interesting corner. So then why the 3-5 point? A 3-5 indicates a primary direction of play down the board, shirking the corner as a result. Since down the board=ideal checking extension this looks to be a good move to me. If white approaches from his group on the top black gets a nice enclosure. And if white approaches normally at b-d, I'll need to consider the options more heavily then. But I'm liking a pincer if W:b. Enclosing if W:c, and can't decide yet if W:d My goal is to make inefficient by having some kind of group on the top, but pressing down for influence feels like it would end up leaving me over concentrated. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I had to think about the move I made and the move at "b". "b" puts more pressure on the 5-3 stone, but leaves behind a big weakness. I decided that if B tenukis, I will invade the corner at "a"which will allow me to attack blacks stone for profit on the left. I expect B to enclose the corner at "c", which will allow me to take sente. I feel pretty satisfied about either result. In any case, my white group up top is strong. I also just watched a Gocommetary video on youtube. It said that whenever a move is important for both sides, even if it seems small, it is usually the urgent move. W's shape up top would be bad if black took 6. But now that I have it, approaches against the top left corner are valid.
Go is fun |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
Twitchy Go wrote:
With the board as it is a is a very interesting point for black, a checking extension on whites group. Coupled with the fact that white needs a position in the upper left corner to get the most out of that makes it the most interesting corner. So then why the 3-5 point? A 3-5 indicates a primary direction of play down the board, shirking the corner as a result. Since down the board=ideal checking extension this looks to be a good move to me. If white approaches from his group on the top black gets a nice enclosure. And if white approaches normally at b-d, I'll need to consider the options more heavily then. But I'm liking a pincer if W:b. Enclosing if W:c, and can't decide yet if W:d My goal is to make inefficient by having some kind of group on the top, but pressing down for influence feels like it would end up leaving me over concentrated.
I don't like this 5-3 move, personally. To analyse this, first I think that one can treat the two open corners on the bottom half of the board as miai following black's last move. If black takes one, white takes the other and vice versa. That said, the primary direction of the 5-3 point is to follow up by creating a corner enclosure and moving down the left side in this case. However, if white takes one of the open corners, black should as well. If black then takes the shimari instead, white gets two corners and black is left with a couple corners that don't work together because of the strong white group between them. If white approaches the 5-3 stone, then the secondary direction of development is along the top side in the direction of B. However, there is a relatively strong white group near B already, making the top side less valuable for black. It also turns 5 into a vulnerability if black then pincers, because a counterpincer by white would combine as an extension from the topside group, or white could lean on 5 and then counterpincer on the left side to attack black. That said, there is certainly some interesting strategy to explore with something like a taisha, since white's choice of the simpler crosscut variation would let black play first in the lower right as a ladderbreaker. An example of the more complicated variations might start here, with black to move (probably to reinforce the two centre stones somehow. I'm not entirely certain this would be a win for black, though.
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
W approached down the side so I'm going to enclose. Direction of play for my stones in the upper left is now down the left side.i.e., and extension from my enclosure. But not just yet. I feel like white is a little over concentrated right now. I just mean that in the sense that he has only played on the top of the board. Not necessarily that his shape itself can be called over concentrated. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I am not really sure about this move at all. There are too many variation to a 5-3 joseki for me to really know what to expect here. My theory is since my stone is aiming at the side, I will prevent B from making a moyo on the left side. Really though, I have no idea what I am doing. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
With the shimari and 5-3 both pointing down the left side(a) is very big for both players. However if I take a point along the left side black seamlessly switches towards facing down the bottom(b). 5-3 points are interesting because they are so flexible, but it makes them hard to deal with.  I think the immediate approach is best.
Approaching with the 3-4 has the benefit of preventing the enclosure by white. White will then however be able to press(quite likely in sente) and then take our shared big point on the left. This is very painful for the development of my shimari, but the remaining corner would be a consolation prize. Black could double approach at c, but the press feels better to me. The one bonus to this approach is it gives white the opportunity to start a taisha. Which I'd welcome with the upper corner solid. So of course he wouldn't  Since I'm not feeling whites ability to press down on this approach what about the high approach?
I do like the high approach. White can enclose at c, but then  is in a good position to ruin whites ideal development direction(e). White still might be able to disrupt my shimaris development but that is ok. I elected to disrupt his development as opposed to developing my own. And go is about sharing  W gets some solid territory, but black isn't to bad himself so W c is an acceptable response.Black b installs a white group facing the bottom right and a black group facing the upper left(in most joseki). This might be preferable for white since it devalues blacks shimari in the upper left. I'd accept this line as well. Especially since the bottom is so wide. White won't play d. It's to low for no reason. I mention it since it is a joseki option, but I don't think it works well with this board.(Although I'm sure it is playable) Lastly a. This move is a pain. White is pretty steadfast on preventing the black shimari from developing, but black gets a lot of territory as compensation for the thickness white wants. Sorry for not posting diagrams to illustrate the options. I will post more in depth move sequences once I see how white wants to handle it. Especially seeing I've as yet only skimmed the relevant joseki section. And a huge thanks to DJLLAP for such an interesting game. It's kind of nice to not just play standard fuseki(orthadox, chinese and so on) all the time.  |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
Joseki Trigger?
If he accepts this trigger and adds an extension around J4, I will take the last corner on the star point. Assuming he approaches and I answer, We will both have one solid corner, one strong group, and one corner that has been approached. Seems very balanced to me. And because of Komi, it might be better for W. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
Or it seems that I won't be going into detailed joseki discussion because white chose to pull back at d4. I'm fine with just taking 1 and letting white choose between extending down the left or taking the open corner. They're both big.
The reason I pulled back to a instead of the marked stone is to keep  from being sente, threatening the invasion at b. I don't want white to be able to enlarge the left then extend, that would be to painful. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
A 4-4 point temporarily settles the corner. Extending at 3 is a very big move. White would still like to extend from his group, as would of course black. Even if this allows him to pressure my lower group, I can't let white get a move around as well as the first move in the lower right corner. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I am aiming at a move at "a".
If I dive straight in:
What I am hoping for:
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
I played the marked stone to prevent white from jumping out at a in sente. And the push at 4 doesn't seem any more severe against blacks position. Not to mention blocking would make my group even more over concentrated.  And with my stone at C 10 I don't see how this is helping white build very much territory. Still it would be nice to give my bottom group more security, so I'm approaching the corner. High instead of low because the marked stone is low. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
This seems to be a difficult situation for both of us, but I think that B's move is a mistake. the following standard joseki on a empty board is clearly bad for W. Black makes a moyo and can now come back and block at "a", leaving him in much too good a position.
One variation that I think is possible in the actual game is this:
It I also really want to play at "a" since it looks to me like a defensive move is then needed around "b", and it would set up my previously planned invasion at "c". B probably wont reply according to my plans, but I think anything that doesn't capitalize on the double high approach available to him, will be a local loss in the corner. which will make things worthwhile for W. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #203: DJLLAP vs Twitchy Go |
The reason I like the invasion at "A" is because I think that the black stone at c10 is an over extension. It just looks too thin. I would have played a move at "b".
See this invasion plan:
W is able to destroy B's moyo, create a small amount of center potential, and isolate the upper left corner. I haven't done a lot of reading, but it seems to me that B may not be totally alive on the bottom either. |
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