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Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8053 |
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Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
This is an even game between emerus and Dragon Pie. We're both right around the border of kyu and dan. I hope to learn something from this game and I'm hoping that others can learn from the game as well. Enjoy the game, emerus.
I grab a handful of white stones. |
Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
Tails! Err... I mean.... even? EDIT: White it is. Have a very good game. |
Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:11 am ] |
Post subject: | #1 |
If my opponent plays in the upper left, I'll go ahead and enclose my shimari and treat the other two corners like miai. If he takes the bottom left, I might play at 3-3 with the idea of playing a diagonal fuseki with lots of solid cash and it might become a territory versus influence game. Or I might play 4-4 so that I'm not giving up too much influence and I can strike a nice balance. It's an even game, so I have to remember that white gets some komi. At scoring, I'll let my opponent take any reasonable komi. If he decides on 5.5, 6.5 or 7.5, that'll be fine to me. If the game is that close, I don't think it matters so much who won, but more that we played about evenly. |
Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:51 am ] |
Post subject: | #2 |
Nothing special, I'll open 2 4-4 and play reactively. |
Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
Ok, now I let him decide. I've played orthodox a lot lately and so I'll probably do 3-4 if he goes parallel. I think white's better off playing on the bottom right anyhow because an extension on the right is a place where either of us want to play. So, maybe I shouldn't give him the choice, but it's not that big a deal. I can build up elsewhere. |
Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:42 am ] |
Post subject: | #4 |
If you could put the move number in the post title, I think that makes things look a bit better. Interesting that he offered me a cross fuseki, small scale go fits my style better than moyos and frameworks do. Also, I rarely see black take the diagonal opening in pro play, I feel like that's because komi is too large when black doesn't have a speedy opening. |
Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | #5 |
Sounds like a plan. Or I could just start spitting out coordinates, Magicwand style. Well, now we're all split up. Theoretically this should be better for white as black's supposed to be more likely to make up komi if he gets a moyo built, but that doesn't mean that's the only way black can play. I ended up going with the solid cash corner play after all. I don't think it's exactly optimal, but I sometimes switch between going for solid points and going for influence. It's important to be able to play both ways. If I'm playing to simply win, I try to play very balanced and flexible, but when I'm playing to learn, I try different things out. It's generally useful to be able to invade and deal with influence, so sometimes I let my opponent build a decent moyo as I take some territory and try to improve my judgement to figure out how to reduce that moyo. In the end, the goal is to have more points than my opponent. Nonetheless, I will most likely have to be the one to invade inside his moyo with good timing or to reduce it to something manageable. Either way, I challenge myself in this way by playing so territorially early. |
Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | #6 |
It's been a while since my 3-3 addiction but I remember how I always was satisfied when black shoulder hit me thinking "pros never do this so early, it can't be good". Recently though, my teacher played this move on move 3 in a 2 stone game and he thought it was the most natural thing in the world. I'm a bit more familar with the 'a' and 'b' variations but don't like this kind of picture as a matter of taste:
The extension one space shorter does not have the invasion point but I am still not comfortable approaching the lower left formation. I considered the shoulder hit at 'd' to force him low in every location but it's much much simpler to attack the 3-3 stone right now. |
Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | #7 |
Mostly symmetrical. But not completely symmetrical. The right and bottom right areas look most interesting to me, so I push here and slide under his stones. That way I'll be undercutting what he'd most like to develop. |
Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Dragon Pie vs Emerus #8 |
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Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | #9 |
This is one of the more common 3-3 josekis. I think that there are a number of follow ups for white here, but the two space jump and the bend are the most common. One reason is that after playing a, black has a follow up at b that is fairly large.
For some reason, I've noticed that a lot of my opponents around the low SDK level really like to play c to try to keep white low. The problem is that the cut here is simply too good for black, so he will not crawl but will instead cut. And this is the result and white is sad. both of his groups are separated and relatively weak.
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Author: | emerus [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Dragon Pie vs. emerus #10 |
I'm going to take the influence and try to keep my star point stones happy. |
Author: | Dragon Pie [ Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | #11 |
I think that the odds are high that he won't want me to get a double wing. Also, I think he might want to prevent my approach on the lower right now. I considered approaching there directly, but the bottom isn't all that interesting right now as I've already undercut it and it's gote for him to close me off. The turn on the left is pretty big. I'd seriously consider that as white, but if I'd probably approach on the bottom right, and if he responded, take sente in order to approach the top right. That'd feel pretty nice to me. My natural style tends to be fast and more often influence oriented. Which is actually interesting because my favorite is when I get the best of both worlds and get to build influence with some solid points in hand. That's my favorite. |
Author: | emerus [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Dragon Pie vs. emerus #12 |
With , I develop my star point while preventing him a double, then I expect b1-5 with being difficult for me to answer. It feels too comfortable for black.
This aims to take an excellent result in the lower left corner and then make the top and right miai. When I think about it more, this is my one chance to take advantage of black not playing joseki (black 'a' instead of ). Instead, it looks as if black spent his first 3 moves in one area and then invaded my corner:
This gives white a very good result locally, with time to get another big point in the opening. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
I prefer white now, that turn was too big as it works with white in top left. If black was on the left side it would be ok to allow white the turn. |
Author: | Shaddy [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #11 |
Dragon Pie wrote: Which is actually interesting because my favorite is when I get the best of both worlds and get to build influence with some solid points in hand. That's my favorite. @Dragon Pie: This is known as being ahead |
Author: | Amelia [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
@Uberdude Black's plan to approach both the bottom right and top left sounds like it would allow black to build a big moyo all while white is building his own. Those extensions, if he does get them, look like they would work pretty well with his shimari as well. Can you elaborate a bit why this is not a good trade for black? Is it because white is likely to get in the way of black's plan and get a superior result? Or is it because a position like this is in general better for white than for black, even if white doesn't bother to get in the way?
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Author: | Dragon Pie [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | #13 |
I considered approaching the bottom right corner thinking that it would be sente because he wouldn't want to be double approached, but then I considered that the bottom isn't the most important area of the board right now and I believe that should make that approach gote even considering my surrounding stones. If we had played the typical joseki on the lower left out, white's stones would have influence, but they wouldn't be particularly thick. Right now, with my opponents last move that felt slow to me, his have become thick. And as such, I've decided that it's more important to first expand along the top as that intersects with the left. I think that something like a pincer would play into my hands the joseki as diving into the corner would lead to a joseki that helps mute his influence a bit. Either way, that's definitely the important area right now. I also considered a splitting move on the left, but I've had a habit of being jealous of my opponents territory in the past and I think that's a reasonable move, but I'm trying to get over that habit. If he simply jumps or keima's here, I will probably fall back to the star point and get my double wing. His left side still feels open for invasion after a move like that, so I'm not sure of the best response for white here. Maybe he'll have to add a move to that side after I get my double wing and I'll be able to approach his other 4-4 point. @Shaddy I feel like I'm ahead as I felt like his last move was slow, but it was also thick and I'm doing my best to respect that. But I am happy with my position. His move is also definitely considered joseki as well, but I wouldn't have played it just yet. |
Author: | emerus [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I should be more clear with my intentions in these games but my fear is second guessing myself and looking ridiculous. This cap jumps out to me, we're both making our spheres of influence and this is the vital point for that.
These are the moves that I considered, with the top right and left side in mind. I liked the idea of 'c' because of ko variations but feel that I'm behind if white simply takes the corner. With 'a', I have some development on the left but it isn't very expansive and feels slow.
Tenuki was actually my first thought - to keep the top and right side miai and fight my way out of the corner but black will get to play on both the top and the left and I'm without much potential to develop.
I'll probe, expected him to answer one point above , then I will probe the corner again at s16. I'll continue reading to see how I can get the last big point of a/b. Still treating them as miai. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209 |
@Amelia Amelia wrote: @Uberdude Black's plan to approach both the bottom right and top left sounds like it would allow black to build a big moyo all while white is building his own. Those extensions, if he does get them, look like they would work pretty well with his shimari as well. Can you elaborate a bit why this is not a good trade for black? Is it because white is likely to get in the way of black's plan and get a superior result? Or is it because a position like this is in general better for white than for black, even if white doesn't bother to get in the way?
Amelia, my dislike of giving white the turn wasn't really based on such a long-term expected continuation, it's more just a feeling of what is urgent and how the turn makes white thick and have territory potential on the left instead of a floaty influence group that can even be attacked later. As you say in your diagram white has been overly obedient, I expect he would resist black's plans more. Also I noticed you made a common beginner mistake in your diagram, you have played the marked slides and then made 3 space extensions. This is bad because the 3 space extensions have an invasion at a. If white invades at a it is good to have the flexibility to be able to sacrifice the approach stone by jumping into the 3-3 point in the corner, the slide removes this option so the approach stone and slide become heavy (you can't easily sacrifice it by playing 3-3). So either don't slide and make a 3 space extension (to 4th line is normal, but 3rd line is not awful), or do slide and make the tighter 2 space extension on 3rd line. |
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