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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #121 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Had a nice long diatribe typed out. Internet died. I lost it. I am here to say, contain, expect bulging out to the right side. Go on attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #122 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:04 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe the following potential continuations are good for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . 4 2 5 7 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . 4 2 7 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #123 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #124 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #125 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:45 pm 
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I think this is a freebie. Which means did black make a mistake? and if so then I best be looking for a trap.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #126 Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:18 pm 
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White's 30+ points behind by quick count. He needs to resort to extreme measures as soon as possible. In fact, he has to find a way to live inside of Black's moyo on the left side. Conversely, all Black needs to do is to reinforce his moyo there:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #127 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . 7 . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about playing each of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X c . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . d O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . e . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . a . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A, C & D seem too small at the moment. I think the move I played is bigger.
B seems fairly large, but still smaller than my move plus it's gote.
E seems as large as my move, but I'm nervous that it would be too loose. I've actually been trying to decide between E and my move for quite a while now.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #128 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:14 am 
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"a" would have been safer. Black would get fewer points than in the game if White's invasion there failed. However, preventing the invasion would have been easier. As for how White should proceed next, perhaps he can start with :w1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . a X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #129 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:10 pm 
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The Intrepid wrote:
"a" would have been safer. Black would get fewer points than in the game if White's invasion there failed. However, preventing the invasion would have been easier. As for how White should proceed next, perhaps he can start with :w1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . a X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks generally more eyespacey to me, with much the same threat in the lower left. And, being higher, it looks like it has a chance to threaten to connect to the marked stone (and fail, of course, but maybe make an eye in the process). Why did you choose your move?

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #130 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:43 pm 
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I'm tired. I think this is going to get me a predicted response and allow me some time to think. still undecided on what to do on the lower left corner. Can I rattle him into making a mistake?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 8 . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . 7 . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #131 Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O 9 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #132 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:53 pm 
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@billywoods:
I based my suggestion on instinct rather than on detailed reading, so I make no claim that my move is better than the one you suggested. However, if you compare the following two diagrams, White has more eyespace after B6 than after C7:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . ? ? , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . ? ? , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 3 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #133 Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:19 am 
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The Intrepid wrote:
@billywoods:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . ? ? , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . ? ? . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black should play :b2: at :b4: . Now white has to extend immediately. But white can't gain all the extra eyespace you indicated, because black is too strong nearby for white to extend that far:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


so white has to keima instead. Alternatively, maybe black could even play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


provided black is happy for white to cut (as there's no eyespace away from the side). If white comes out instead with :w3:, black plays at :w3:, and the shape's a little weird for white. Just seems like it's better to play away from black's strength and on the third line immediately. (I suppose talking about eyespace is bogus - in any case white can't make more than one eye on the side.)

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #134 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:45 am 
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Actually, my thinking was to play an attachment move such as :w5::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 4 O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, even if White played the extension to :wc: and Black responded with :bc:, as you suggested, White need not save :wt:. To the contrary, if :wt: can be sacrificed to create a living shape elsewhere inside of Black's moyo, then that's perfect. It's not easy to do this, though. I'll try to read out the situation in more detail later, but for the moment my intuition tells me to investigate the following continuation (with the aim to create a living shape in the top-left):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . 5 W . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B 6 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . Q . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also, White definitely should not retreat to "a" after :b2: below, but push forward to :w3: (perhaps "b" should be given some thought, also):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 b . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #135 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:15 am 
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The Intrepid wrote:
Actually, my thinking was to play an attachment move such as :w5::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . 6 X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . c 5 , . . . . . , X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 4 O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :b6:, it looks to me as though black has too many ways of depriving white of an eye.

The Intrepid wrote:
However, even if White played the extension to :wc: and Black responded with :bc:, as you suggested, White need not save :wt:. To the contrary, if :wt: can be sacrificed to create a living shape elsewhere inside of Black's moyo, then that's perfect.

Sure, if that's possible. :)

The Intrepid wrote:
Also, White definitely should not retreat to "a" after :b2: below, but push forward to :w3: (perhaps "b" should be given some thought, also):

I agree, but in that case why not just play :w3: or b (my suggested move) first? ;)

Perhaps it doesn't matter. I'm not sure whether white can live behind there at all. It looks hard.

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #136 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:32 am 
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A pro could probably live there. I wish Lee Sedol were handling the White pieces. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #137 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #138 Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:18 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that white has to play at O9, Q9, or R9 to defend all these cut points. Otherwise something like this may happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . 5 O X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . 3 O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 9 7 6 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . 4 O X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . 3 O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #139 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:55 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 121
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Universal go server handle: Quiettimes
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . O . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #218 Quietimes vs Ikkyu
Post #140 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:23 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 131
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 3
Rank: 17-18k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . 5 O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about playing the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . O X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . c O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X O . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . O . . . X O O O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All four are gote. A & C secure territory for myself, B limits the amount of territory white can get on top & D gets rid of bad aji that I've been concerned about since I played B3. However, I chose my move because I feel it's sente for me and I feel that my P11 group might run into problems without an additional black stone there.

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