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#219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8690		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  billywoods [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Hello!

I am 3-ish kyu, my opponent ikkyu is 17-18 kyu. I'll leave decisions on handicap / ruleset choice / whether references are allowed to ikkyu. :)

Have a good game!
Author:  ikkyu [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Japanese rules, open reference. But I'll leave the choice of handicap/komi to billywoods. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other when it comes to handicap. However, as the stronger of the two of us, I want to make certain you feel the game is interesting for you. You know better than I do what will enable this. As such, I'll leave it up to you. The only request I have is that I'm black.
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
ikkyu wrote:
I want to make certain you feel the game is interesting for you.
You can try a 13-stone game. :)
Author:  billywoods [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
ikkyu wrote:
Japanese rules, open reference. But I'll leave the choice of handicap/komi to billywoods. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other when it comes to handicap. However, as the stronger of the two of us, I want to make certain you feel the game is interesting for you. You know better than I do what will enable this. As such, I'll leave it up to you. The only request I have is that I'm black.

Okay - if neither of us has strong opinions, would you like 9 stones (with white getting 0.5 komi)? :)

EdLee wrote:
You can try a 13-stone game. :)

That would certainly help me to practise the subtle art of resignation. :)
Author:  ikkyu [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
9 stones with 0.5 komi sounds fine.

And you can laugh, but I've played and lost a 13-stone game before. It was when I first started playing and I was around 25 kyu playing a 2 kyu.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  billywoods [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
ikkyu wrote:
I've played and lost a 13-stone game before. It was when I first started playing and I was around 25 kyu playing a 2 kyu.

I did once see a 25-stone game, but black won. I was almost disappointed. :)

Have a good game!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


*click!*
*dramatic music*

Some comments for beginners:
At the start of any game, you typically plant some strong groups - usually in the corner, intending to build from your foundations onto the side, and intending to build from there into the centre. The faster your groups become strong, the more easily you can build on them and the less easily they can be pushed around. If your groups are too weak, 'pushing around' turns into an attack, and if you play too loosely that may result in your group dying. Severe attacks and death aren't usually very real concerns early on in even games, where a much more real danger is simply getting pushed around too much, but high handicap games are unusual - it's very easy for black to launch a severe attack on me immediately. So I'm going to try to plant some strong groups quickly while keeping my head poked out into the centre, and reduce black slowly. Of course, if black makes a mistake and I can launch an attack, even better.

One common sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 4 . X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Notes:
  • a still works as an invasion point, but damages the outside hugely. I can't play it too early.
  • If black doesn't kick or similar with :b2:, I get to slide to b, which is a little too kind. For this reason playing :b2: at c is a slight mistake.
  • I can always play d as an emergency move to live if I have to.
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
ikkyu wrote:
but I've played and lost a 13-stone game before.
My very first face to face physical game was 13 stones (or even more!), and I lost by something like 40 points. :)
Author:  ikkyu [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Every single in person game I've played as black was a handicap game, often 9 stones as I was one of the only people at my club weaker than 5 kyu (and the only DDK). As such, I learned early on that white 1 was a very common first move in these type of games and black 2 became almost automatic. At first, I didn't understand the importance of the star-point black stone and would play the kick in situations like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I was quickly taught the error of my ways...
Author:  ikkyu [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
ikkyu wrote:
but I've played and lost a 13-stone game before.
My very first face to face physical game was 13 stones (or even more!), and I lost by something like 40 points. :)


Out of my own curiosity, how long ago was that? My game was in 2011.
Author:  Clossius [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
The game is on!
Author:  billywoods [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As expected.
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
ikkyu, probably end of 2002 or early 2003. :)
Author:  ikkyu [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Standard joseki. Thought about playing on the 3rd line instead of the 4th

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |[/go]


but felt that it would be too passive and not in keeping with the influence-oriented placement of the star point stones.
Author:  ikkyu [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Clossius wrote:
The game is on!


I love your youtube channel. Thanks for putting such good stuff out there for us to watch and learn from.


Now I'm nervous that I'm going to play something silly. :study:
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 
ikkyu wrote:
Standard joseki. Thought about playing on the 3rd line instead of the 4th but felt that it would be too passive...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
( For beginners. ) Good. :b4: on the 4th line in the real game
puts more pressure on the two W stones and is a good way to make use of B's handicap stones.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) For :w5:, W may consider (a),(b), or elsewhere,
to probe B's reply and/or to try to start a fight.
Author:  billywoods [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Right now, I'm trying to get enough stones around the right-hand side of the board to make black feel uncomfortable. Black's next move will necessarily strengthen some stones and not strengthen others; I'll try to play towards black's weaknesses. My stones are fairly light (which means that I don't feel too bad about sacrificing them) at the moment, so I'm hoping to play for an advantageous position rather than instantly create a strong group. Of course, if necessary, I'll come back and play the sequence I showed in my spoiler at move :w1:, but this move also gives me options to attack the lower-right corner or attack the centre-right stone. Maybe I'll be able to say something more concrete after :b6:.
Author:  ikkyu [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've often read that in a high handicap game, it's important for black to keep white's groups separated. I should note that I rarely win the handicap games I play. So even though this is a 9 stone game, I actually feel less sure of my moves than I do playing an even game.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) Good. :b6: at (a) would also be good --
W may naturally take :w2: and start a fight, and the fight is good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 1 . X . . . |
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$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  quietimes [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
ikkyu, probably end of 2002 or early 2003. :)

Wow! My first games on kgs were 2002. And I'm still 15-20k! Boo
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