Hi, Shinkenjoe has agreed to play me.
I'm about 10k, I just won a malkovich and I want to win again!
@Shinkenjoe: have a nice game!
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| #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8744 |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Hi, Shinkenjoe has agreed to play me. I'm about 10k, I just won a malkovich and I want to win again! @Shinkenjoe: have a nice game!
I just played the normal handicap stones, because i am the weaker player and everything unorthodox should favour my opponent. I want to keep it simple: keep connected, cut white in parts  let's see how this works...I'll explain my thought-process as necessary as i'll think it's necessary (this sentence is terrible, could anybody please give me a better idea?). When there are questions, ask me then i'll try to find a good answer. I'm already nervous about any hidden comments. |
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| Author: | Shinkenjoe [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
yeah, have fun! Let's see what 5 stones are worth.
They are worth a lot, especially the fifth stone, as I can't really play for the center. I'll think I'll have to play super aggressive, but I need something to target first, so normal opening and aggressive middle game. |
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| Author: | ikkyu [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Beginner question: Note: I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games?
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| Author: | moyoaji [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
ikkyu wrote: Beginner question: Note: I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games?
I've heard 2 theories on handicap games as black when you are approached and have 3-7 stones. The first is that you should take advantage of your stones' influence to be aggressive. The best move is a one-space low pincer to try to force white to take the corner or else be run all over the board. If white takes the corner then you use your outside influence and invite white to try to steal the bottom from you. At that point, you attack. The second is that you should play conservatively. Not afraid to fight your opponent, but also keeping things simple. In this case 'b' would be the correct move and you should try to play a normal game as if you have no handicap stones. The logic here is that as long as you don't make a big mistake your opponent will be unable to overcome your advantage. Style exists even in handicap games. I have read that with 8 or 9 stones (or when your opponent approaches on a side where you already have the third star point in a 6 or 7 stone game) you are supposed to kick the stone and force your opponent to make a narrow base while you claim the corner.
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| Author: | The Intrepid [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
With  in place, White doesn't have enough room for two eyes, so Black can hope to get more profit from attacking than from playing calmly at "a" (I think that playing at "a" is better than playing at "b," by the way, because of  ).
Other good ways for Black to attack here are these:
That said, Black is not obligated to play locally. Black has very good ways to tenuki on a large-handicap board. The most common way among professionals is to play here:
The second most common way is this (an unexpected move, isn't it?):
The third most common way is the following ("a" instead of  is almost as common):
For a lower handicap game, White won't have trouble getting eyespace for his stone. Because of this, Black would do better to either pincer (for instance at ) or play "a" or "b":
However, just as before, Black can simply tenuki ... and keep tenuki-ing to his heart's content:
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| Author: | The Intrepid [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
moyoaji wrote:
In additional to  , White commonly also plays the following moves:
Tenuki is also an option for White, but it's not advisable. White will face difficulties after  or "a":
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| Author: | Shinkenjoe [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Wow All those comments. My move must've come unexpected. I sure had a hard time comin up with it. *pats himself on the shoulder*. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
ikkyu, ikkyu wrote: I’ve never played black in a handicap game less than 6 stones. In those games, I’ve always heard that responding at A or B below is too lax and black should be more aggressive. Does this hold true for 4 and 5-stone handicap games? For beginners and even at kyu levels, it's no problem to reply at (a) or (b).
It's your follow-ups that matter. The moves and the mistakes that decide the game will come later -- they're not (a) or (b). |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
wow, so many comments. hopefully i don't miss a crucial point. No, actually i hope there IS an important move and i get to discover the truth after i have won.
i don't want to allow a base too easily. that's not the "keep it simple" me, but the "cut white in pieces" me. i think so early this IS still simple. should all these hidden comments be directed at my first post? it's working: i'm nervous. and can't wait to see what they say. |
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| Author: | Shinkenjoe [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Quote: .... after i have won. You want to play another Malkovich after that one ?
Why does he choose somethinmg complicated? I dont know. So lets make it more complicated. |
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| Author: | lesenv [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Quote: You want to play another Malkovich after that one ? Probably, but i meant: Once i finished you  , i get to read all the hidden comments and absorp the assembled wisdoms. 
in the past i played on the 3-3 instead of my  . But this leads to white getting stronger while i struggle for life.I was tempted to play at 3-3. At least i would have 5 more stones on the outside, but i don't think i should have to use it that way. I'll play normal, not afraid. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
( For beginners. ) When W double approached with  ,the 5-5 point (a) and the 3-3 point (b) can be considered Miai. When B takes (a) with , (b) becomes very big for both B and W.
,and the result is simple and good for B. |
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| Author: | Shinkenjoe [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
Quote: Once i finished you Dream on!And take this.
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
which is the wider side? first i thought that both sides were equally wide because both sides have the 4-4s. Now the difference is . i think when i strengthen the bottom side it is better because the right side has already some support.Now with the board (first i didn't look at the board, just imagined it) i think it is definitely the right direction: when the white tries to live, is a kind of attack helping against  and . Haha, nice.This aside i think it is possible to tenuki here, but i don't understand why this should be better than to cut immidiately. (Often this doesn't leave enough option once one is commited, but at this point i don't see a better option) |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lesenv, lesenv wrote: i think it is possible to tenuki here, Tenuki for B or for W? And when, exactly -- where is "here" ? Please show a diagram.lesenv wrote: i don't understand why this should be better than to cut immidiately. Who cuts where? Diagram, please. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
( For beginners. )  is forced; then, (a) direction and (b) direction can be considered Miai --
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| Author: | lesenv [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #220 shinkenjoe(4k) vs lesenv(10k) 5H |
EdLee, :b6: cuts off from
As to where else to play, I have no clue, that's why i went with the cut. But probably:
a are big points, b is big, too. and more it pincers the white group. When stronger players tenuki, i sometimes think that there's a mistake. Here i even don't know where this will go if i play at a point at a. This is too complicated, i can't even *guess* the next 2 moves. not to speak of *read*. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
lesenv,
, B has two options to block : block at (x), or block at (y).Each one is not a cut; each is a block. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
instead of blocking at (x) or (y),B also has (c) and (d), and other options. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote:
, B has two options to block : block at (x), or block at (y).Each one is not a cut; each is a block. Given that white can connect to both stones with one move on the 2-2 point, I think it's arguable that black is cutting. |
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