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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #21 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:51 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 79
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
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[go]$$Wcm12 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is right here... hmm :I

If he goes like this, then it looks okay?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It could continue like this and this looks kind of like if he didn't atari at s13 first... hmmm and I don't think he could push through at black 2 here because his stones have too many cutting points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems like I can handle this as well...I hope :I
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder how he's feeling about the game. Right now, I feel that the game is developing towards a competing moyo's game, which I am comfortable with. In my experience with competing moyo games the other player tends to make a bad invasion and I end up with too much territory. I don't think he'll do that, but his stones are low and if I get sente here, I feel like I have an advantage. But if I end in gote here, it's probably even. I'll try and see if I can take sente here.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #22 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:18 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 86
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 1kyu
KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh goodness, I guess we're gonna play the interesting stuff! So far graemy has consistently surprised me, so this is turning into quite a learning experience. I've never analyzed my early game as much as I have this game, so even if I lose horribly in the next 10 moves I'll be glad for the experience.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This seems rather unplayable for black unless I'm missing some crucial.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This also looks too good for white. I should have enough liberties/n at R15 to play in this manner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 7 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 8 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This looks more playable for black, but we'll see what graemy chooses
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 8 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This should work, and then I either give up a ladder breaker in the bottom left, or I take a good chunk of the corner in the following sequence
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3 1 4 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n Is this the right punishment? I can't really think of something stronger here, but I guess I figured there'd be a stronger one.\n I'm loathe to give graemy sente here however...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n Enough of the cut. I feel I'm either misreading something, or I just have poor positional \n judgement. Maybe it's better to just take the corner? This way is certainly not an option however...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm regretting not just taking the corner earlier. I feel I'm missing something, because I think I should be getting more out of my position here than I think I am so far. I guess we'll see how graemy responds and take it from there. No use worrying about moves that aren't played!

_________________
"It has cost me much, but I have learned... Lemon need not squeeze lemon to survive..!"

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #23 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:13 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 79
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I obviously can't let white have the ponnuki. Now let's see what he does.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #24 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:23 pm 
Lives in gote

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To seek enlightenment, I consulted the pro game database. It turns out that what I said earlier (to attach to the stronger stone so as to attack the weaker one) is no longer the preferred way of playing among professionals in response to a double-approach following a two-space-pincer. For whatever reason, from 2007 onward, pros preferred to play :b1: in favor of "a" by a ratio of 19:1.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ , . . . a . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

As for follow-up moves, cutting with :b1: is very unusual (Black almost always plays "b").
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . b X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

After this cut, play should continue as follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . 5 X 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 1 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . 2 . |
$$ , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 3 . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Next, Black can choose from "a" though "d," although other moves might be possible, as well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . b X . |
$$ , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X d . |
$$ . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #25 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:30 pm 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 86
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 1kyu
KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n I think :w18: is the move I missed.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n From here I think I capture either R13 or P15, which should give me a great result
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . W X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This is too good for white as well.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No essays this time, sorry everone. It'd take me quite awhile to type out all the crazy stuff I looked at :-?

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #26 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . a X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a or b man O: bring it on D:<. Just taking b may be too passive, I expect a. Maybe he'll consider the atari at c first.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #27 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Liked others: 13
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Rank: KGS 1kyu
KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, time to roll the dice. Let's see if my reading was correct. Either I'm coming out ahead, or I die horribly, but I feel confident.

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Post #28 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This stone is weakest and I'm not just going to hand him the corner.

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Post #29 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Rank: KGS 1kyu
KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X B 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far this is all stuff I've read since O17, but I guess we'll see if I was wrong soon.

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Post #30 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:12 am 
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KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n After reading through this position on my board for a bit, I now expect this response.\n I think this corner has turned into some sort of weird sacrifice version of an attachment joseki. graemy gets sente and some\n influence, and I get a huge corner. I think this is still better for me than the standard corner invasion, but time will tell
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X B 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #31 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:04 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I don't want to give him the corner now. These stones can live in the corner, so I think I'm fine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The above seems like a dangerous battle, I like it, looks like fun.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The hane defends the outside stones well enough, I think. Now it seems like white needs the atari at a. I also need b to live, unless I can kill him.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he tries this, I live and he needs to make life as well.

hmmm... I think I can do okay here. I wonder what he's thinking about.

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Post #32 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:12 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The hane defends the outside stones well enough, I think. Now it seems like white needs the atari at a. I also need b to live, unless I can kill him.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think he's overlooking the other atari.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #33 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:36 am 
Dies with sente
User avatar

Posts: 86
Liked others: 13
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Rank: KGS 1kyu
KGS: uriel/ross
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . B . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


edited:
As far as I have read, :w22: is the only move. I could atari at R17, but that seems to be aji-keshi here, especially since I have a strong response in P13

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"It has cost me much, but I have learned... Lemon need not squeeze lemon to survive..!"


Last edited by uriel on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #34 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:35 am 
Lives in gote

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Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think he's overlooking the other atari.
Actually, Black should take the opportunity to exchange :b6: for :w7: before connecting. A neat intermediate move. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . B X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure, though, that :bc: is Black's best move. Black should probably choose one of the other three moves seen in professional practice (see my earlier post).

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Post #35 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:24 am 
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The Intrepid wrote:
Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think he's overlooking the other atari.
Actually, Black should take the opportunity to exchange :b6: for :w7: before connecting. A neat intermediate move. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . B X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure, though, that :bc: is Black's best move. Black should probably choose one of the other three moves seen in professional practice (see my earlier post).

Good point, but I still think this is bad for black.

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 Post subject: Re: #224. graemy vs uriel
Post #36 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:55 am 
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No, this situation isn't bad for Black. Looking at the 4 pro games I found, Black can look optimistically into the future. In fact, I feel like playing Black in the current position.:) The situation is volatile, though, so small mistakes can have big consequences. Should be fun...

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Post #37 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:35 pm 
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The Intrepid wrote:
No, this situation isn't bad for Black. Looking at the 4 pro games I found, Black can look optimistically into the future. In fact, I feel like playing Black in the current position.:) The situation is volatile, though, so small mistakes can have big consequences. Should be fun...

Interesting... I agree that it could go either way here, but I feel like white's in control and so has the advantage. I'm kinda seeing it differently now you've said that though, so I'll withdraw my judgement for a little while. :study:

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Post #38 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:07 pm 
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@Observers
So many hidden comments! Any questions so far?

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Post #39 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:17 pm 
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@uriel
Yeah, one question: what would you play here as Black?

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Post #40 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:49 pm 
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The Intrepid wrote:
@uriel
Yeah, one question: what would you play here as Black?

@The_Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Captures: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . B . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, here I see two main choices for black. If black wants to live in the corner (not my first inclination), I'd look at something like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n This is the natural looking sequence to me, but I don't like the result. Black's P14\n group is very heavy, but giving it up seems to give white too strong of a position. Small life in gote is just too slack I think
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 3 4 B . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n As painful as it is to give up the corner, I'd take that here I think. Black has sente and\n some influence, plus some nice aji in the corner, even as large as it is.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 3 B . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n Black still has a nice point at :ec: for endgame later
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 3 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 W X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: B=0 W=0\n\n Even here, black gets strong influence to support the Mini Chinese formation on the bottom
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, to answer your question, The_Intrepid, I would probably play at b here and give up the corner.

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"It has cost me much, but I have learned... Lemon need not squeeze lemon to survive..!"

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