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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #41 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I read for this. I trust my reading. I can make life here via the ko and, what's more, this is still far enough away that the 3-3 will be open. Black may not make any points here at all.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #42 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this is getting fun... :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #43 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Interesting. I didn't think black would play this way because now I seem to have an easy out. Playing at 'a' just works to get me out to the center now. Otherwise I can still live locally by moving along the side at 'b'. Finally, once I am stronger, I can also consider moving to cut with the sequence at 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #44 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #45 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alright then. I'm out. Some of you may wonder about the black tesuji :b1: here, but it doesn't quite work in this situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Forcing my way out
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 W 5 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #46 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Posts: 1161
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Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Slava Ukraini!

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #47 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I notice you have no hidden comments for that last move. Or for the one before that. I am looking forward to seeing your comments on moves after the game. If you need more time to make comments on your moves feel free to spend more time on each move. Seeing your thoughts afterwards is more important to me than finishing the game in a timely fashion. ;)

:shock:

N3.

N3!

Who in all the wide universe would have guessed black would suddenly play N3?!?

I am not upset. This move doesn't look that great to me as it gives black another weak group. He has yet to connect his groups on the right so I don't understand why he's suddenly playing this.

Regardless of timing, the meaning of this move seems to be three-fold. 1. It aims to surround my corner. 2. It cuts into my potential on the bottom. 3. And most importantly it peeps a cut at the star-point.

I cannot get cut here. This kick seems the most active way to defend it. I considered protecting the cut directly, but that seems to give black more forcing moves against my corner than this does. I want sente to cut black on the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 The move I want
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 3 . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black stands up, I can go back and get some more moves against black's right side. After splitting him up and becoming even stronger I can then counter attack by splitting this new black stone and the stones on the bottom side of my group, creating two weak groups that black will need to work with. However, I must make sure my corner and side stones are strong enough to attack/fight here. First I will help my corner.

I doubt black will play as above. 3 is a nice double-purpose move, but my pincered stone is not yet dead while black's right side is in sad shape. I can dream though. :geek:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #48 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:54 pm 
Lives in sente

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Sorry, I'll make sure to comment on my next moves.

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #49 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:39 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1161
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Rank: KGS 6k
Universal go server handle: hailthorn
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Plan is simple. Enclose then expand. Take away from the bottom. But it would seem I've misread some situations prior, so I hope that isn't the case now. :study:

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #50 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:08 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move by white makes me cry a little on the inside. Black's group at R6 or so is cut off now, so it seems much better for white to engage in a running fight than to try and live locally in the corner while getting sealed in. It's not like :b37 is terribly strong, so with two weak groups each it should be a fair fight. When white lives locally and is sealed, it greviously wounds the r9 group, and I think that black can connect to the top almost at will with S8, though it's gote. If :b37: were split off, though, black would need to worry about that group too, giving white opportunities.

Edit:
To clarify, I think white can break out, but that it damages the center group too much.


Last edited by skydyr on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #51 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:16 am 
Honinbo

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Edit: Unhidden.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Verrrrrry interesting! :mrgreen:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #52 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:54 am 
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Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 7 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again my opponent surprises me. This is a cool move that helps all of black's stones. It also hurts my method of escape. So now I need to get out to the center with my weak group. I wonder if black saw how this could seal me in?

I will go with the idea that my opponent's best move is mine and make the bamboo join. This also gives some more potential to my second line stone at S11. If I pull it out now it is a threat against both sets of stones. I would love to bring it out now but I need to make myself stronger first.

My corner is fine from here - that is one of the powerful things about the 3-3, it is very stable. So now that my group is out I will look to attack the black group between my center group and corner.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #53 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I have to think about this move and I have been for awhile. I'm not entirely sure. I see a lot of moves I could play, but what is best? Another thing I need to factor in is how solid my bottom group is. Is that something I should be concerned with?

P10 still isn't alive, so my instinct tells me to attack this group because it serves multiple purposes. I could strengthen my top group while attacking and perhaps give myself a chance to take away from :white:'s top. But I'm afraid to do this at the expense of my bottom group. I could simply extend, but that puts me into a situation where I lose sente (I think I have it now).

Upon further reading I suppose I could strengthen my bottom group while attacking P10, but I feel like that will limit the benefits I could get at the top.

So let's pretend for a second that the bottom is safe, I see two moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After looking at this, I like P11. I'm still concerned with the bottom, but I'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #54 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aright. Here is the opening I needed. I will now split the two black groups (hopefully in sente by forcing black to capture the S11 stone) and I can prepare my attack. I have several interesting moves that I am considering. We will see what my opponent does here. My group isn't the strongest, but I'm not worried it will die. Nor do I think I will kill the black group. Both groups will run and live, but my group will take away the threat of black building something in the center from his group and while black's group will harm my potential on the bottom, that has already been mostly removed by the two moves black played there.

I am also happy to see that the 3-3 is still open at this point. So black still lacks points. In fact, he still only has the points in the center until he kills my S11 stone, so I'm still ahead.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #55 Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, didn't expect this so soon. But I'm not concerned.

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Post #56 Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:33 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My mood before was calm and reserved. Now my attitude has changed. I suppose that is bound to happen when playing a game over days. I considered tenuki from here. It is possible, but I don't think the result is that great. I have cut black off. Now is the time to strike!

There are some things that could happen if my opponent makes a mistake, but likely won't due to my opponent's reading. Those silly opponents always trying to not lose and such. :roll:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 This would seem nice for me.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 C 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 1 C X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 5 . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Ko and ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 8 3 O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C 5 4 O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X C 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 2 . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This may go to ko, but I also have that ladder and I'll take first so it should be fine. I would have the local threats.

Or perhaps I don't go to capture the bottom black stones and help my group.

We shall see how my opponent responds. I think blocking is probably best and most likely, but he might decide to go for one of the other options I considered in which case I can likely capture something.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #57 Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:53 am 
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Tygem: emerus
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:b37: was probably overzealous but I agree with skydyr about :w38: . Then :b39: seems like a great punishment by black! But alas, :b41: is nonsense and gave up a great advantage to seal white into the corner.

If black can fight, then :b47: is the only way

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 1 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fine for black?


massive edits. been so long since i've messed with diagrams :S

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #58 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:02 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looks like things are about to heat up.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: #227 moyoaji vs hailthorn
Post #59 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:12 am 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is there really any other move at this point?

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #60 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:17 am 
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[go]$$Bcm41 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm..

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