We are playing an even game with 6.5 komi, Japanese rules. I don't really mind about open / closed book, so I'll let you decide.
Nigiri:
Have a good game!
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| #228 VincentCB vs Kirby http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9390 |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
We are playing an even game with 6.5 komi, Japanese rules. I don't really mind about open / closed book, so I'll let you decide. Nigiri: :white:  Have a good game! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Odd. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
I don't understand the hide nigiri. Does the first ": white:" mean a stone, too? |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Yes, that was supposed to be 5 stones, so you go first. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Let's not use outside resources (i.e. Lets go with "closed book"). Have a good game!
I always play 4-4. I feel like mixing things up a bit. I'm a bit uncomfortable when my opponent starts with 5-4 stone, so let's do it to him! |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
I'm currently studying volume 1 of Go Seigen's collected games, which contains games from 1927-29. I'd like to include some ideas from the games I've replayed in this game. Openings from this era contain many early approaches, especially as white against opposing 5-4 and 5-3 points, so I'll approach his corner and see how it goes from here. |
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| Author: | moyoaji [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Wow. Quite the game in just 2 moves. I think black has many options from here, including tenuki, of course. If I was black I wouldn't tenuki. I would play out a 5-4 joseki and try to seal white in the corner. However, I think tenuki to the star-point in the top left would also be a good play. If white and black then each play a corner then it reverts to being a nearly ideal approach to a 3-4 stone. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
My opponent jumps right in, huh? In that case, I'm OK with playing 4-4 like I usually do, but in the top left corner. I'll explain why: Let's say that we each take vacant corners, for example, like this:
I have two corner stones, and an approach on his 3-4 stone in the top left. If we transpose the order of moves:
 would seem silly in my opinion, since it lets me approach so nicely.By playing 5-4, I already have this approach. Since he didn't take a corner and approached immediately, let's cash in on this. |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
My first idea was this :
I thinks it's playable, but black's formation looks good, so I decided to go for the other corner instead. If black plays in the lower right corner, I'll probably enclose the lower left.
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
I don't know much about the 3-5 point - like I said, I usually play 4-4, with the occasional 3-4 spattered in. But thinking locally of the corner, I thought about the side that is more important to white. Let's say I played 4-4, which has no bias toward any side:
The bottom seems nice to me as white, and the marked intersection feels like a good place for white to play next, in my opinion. Compare his with the approach on the right:
The right side is flat, so as black, I don't care if white has this strategy - the right isn't easy for white to develop. With this idea of direction in mind, I play the 3-5 move on the bottom - seems to be the bigger direction to me. So let's change the order up again, to see if it seems OK for black:
The bottom two moves are about equal for black and white, star point for black is natural, and still, the 3-4 for white in top right is placed oddly, since I have perfect approach move, which was played with the original 5-4. I feel bottom of board is equal for black and white, with top of board favoring black. I think I am slightly ahead in the fuseki so far, but very small difference since the game will not be decided for awhile. |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Things are becoming a bit complicated already. I changed my mind about enclosing the bottom left corner since black will take the initiative. I have to settle the upper right corner first. I don't think the avalanche would be good for black, so he will probably hane at O17. Next I will probably pull back at Q17, but I might also play the descent at P18 instead, I'm not sure yet. Approaching the lower right corner instead doesn't look good.
The white stones on the right side are too low, I don't like that.
The balance on the right side looks weird, and black gets a big corner. |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
I expect this =)
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Go is a game of decisions. But more than that, it's about forcing your opponent to make decisions (i.e. probing). There isn't a single pattern for the perfect game of go. Both players have many options to select from, and what might be a good choice in one board position could very well be a *bad* choice in a different board position. In the current board position, there are three feasible options I can consider: * The move I played * Avalanche * Tenuki Avalanche has some possible benefit, because I could try to make the right side have a moyo for black. Here's one example (of who knows how many):
However, it's difficult to see this really becoming some sort of "moyo" for black in the near future, because white can easily approach the bottom right corner. So I decide to eliminate that possibility: * The move I played * Tenuki Then I consider tenuki. Of course it's an option, but is it best? Then I remember some book I read a long time ago, where it's common to tenuki *after* the exchange:
This is because the marked black stones have flexibility. I know this is true, because I did the same thing in a similar position at US Go Congress 2013, and I was able to exploit the hane of the marked stone:
So I decide I wanted to play the move I played in the game. But what next? Should I continue? Following a standard pattern with the top left star point, we have this:
Top looks nice, I suppose. But what happens next? Well, as white, I think of three options again: * Enclosure of bottom left * Approach bottom right * Approach top left Nobody really wants bottom right in this board position right now since right side is flat. So white could enclose bottom left, but I can meet this with my own corner enclosure. More likely, white approach top right like this:
Then I can defend passively to add more investment to top side, or pincer. Investment to top side is kind of bogus. For example:
Now it's not that appealing for me to approach bottom left. I don't know joseki for this shape very well, but maybe something like this is not good for black:
White's moyo on left is nice. Black has some investment in top which is good, but white has sente, and feels like black is behind this way. So maybe I do some sort of pincer. Probably common to do something like two space high pincer in this shape, but is this OK for black??
Maybe better than last scenario since  kind of forced white if white plays this way. Still, white can get good moyo if black approaches:
I dunno, maybe white's shape is weak there. What if I pincer low?
White can't really slide like before, but maybe he chooses 3-3. Or maybe something like this:
Hard to say. Then there's the option of tenuki from top right joseki. If I do tenuki, maybe I should try to negate left side since white would like to approach top left:
What does white do? First option is to, of course, punish my tenuki locally:
If he does this, I probably will tenuki again. He gets profit in top left, and can capture at least one stone, and make the other very weak. But there is still aji in that area that I can use possibly later. So if he does do this immediately, maybe now I can approach bottom left, and I have advantage because of stone I played on left. For example:
Compared to before, white's wall is less effective. Black is low on bottom, but gets cash. White has influence that could be useful later, but due to placement of black left stone, hard to say what will come of the influence, so possible that black will benefit more from the immediate points. White has sente here, and can approach bottom right corner. But if he does, maybe I do pincer now, then possible there can be aji in the future with atari at marked spot:
Maybe it's OK for black this way. So maybe white doesn't immediately take advantage of my tenuki. For example, they enclose bottom left since I am inclined to play there. Then I will enclose, too, probably to get similar points in corner:
But difference is, I have two spots to develop my corner enclosure in a big way (marked points), and he only has one due to the move I played when I tenuki top right joseki (he can develop on bottom in biggest way). Bottom is bigger for him to develop, so if he develops there first, then I can similarly develop on right:
Our shapes are similar, but I prefer black, because black's presence on the right side will aid in exploiting the aji that arises if he cuts to take advantage of my tenuki. But bottom is big, so I think he will play this way if this scenario arises. For example, let's say he approaches top left in natural way, then I respond locally:
Now he has choice. If he plays on top, I can take bottom which helps my corner enclosure and hinders his development. So maybe after this exchange, he plays bottom:
Tough choice between right and top, but maybe at *this* point, I respond to top right:
Note the presence of  . This is *not* the high extension that I would have played if I play the joseki only looking only at the top. It's low, because it acts as a pincer on 3, while not allowing white to slide under.In addition to the extra move I get by tenuki top right, this is the power of the tenuki: Because I do not make decision in joseki now, I can be flexible in joseki choice in top right *after* game progresses. This only works if I don't get too bad result from tenuki, but I think it might be OK result for black. So I am expecting this:
But if I wake up tomorrow and I'm in a different different mood, then maybe I'll play this way, which also seemed playable for black:
Let's see how I feel when it comes time to play the next move. |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Pulling back would be the usual move, but I feel like throwing a curve ball at him. This is a possible sequence :
Instead of 12, a or b also look interesting, but first, let's see how he answers in the upper right  |
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| Author: | emerus [ Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Nice opening and keep up the good comments, guys. Should be fun to follow. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
Go is funny in that you spend so much time in analysis, considering different positions, and then your opponent plays something unexpected! I don't know joseki for the local position, but something in the back of my head is saying that this was popular with That Kitani pro guy. I don't know much about him, either, except that I think he was a rival to Go Seigen, he had glasses, I think, and he had a dojo, maybe. I wonder if "closed book" also means I can't look up info on a pro's history. I guess it can wait until this game is finished. Anyway, my initial thought is that I can locally play O16 like I would if he played Q17.
However, now I also have the ability to play Q16 probably, whereas it wouldn't make as much sense in the other joseki.
And of course, like I was considering before, maybe I can still tenuki. My thoughts about this position:
were that the marked stones were light and flexible, so tenuki was an option. Is this still the case now? Well, compared to my previous analysis, the actual game appears to have two effects on the overall aji of the two stones: 1.) O17 is weaker, since there is not as much space on the top, due to the just played P18 stone. 2.) P16 possibly has more potential, since I can consider moves like Q16, which didn't really make sense in the other joseki.
In short, perhaps his last move puts more pressure on the top than my previous analysis, but puts less on the right. My gut feeling is that tenuki is still feasible here. that way, I can see what happens elsewhere, and then react. If he cuts or tries to break up the stones, there is possibly more useful aji than my analysis... So maybe the actual game is better for me, particularly if I opt to tenuki? I don't want to commit to playing yet, but I am cleaning toward C10 for reasons described my my previous post. I'm very unfamiliar with the top right shape, however, so I should be cautious and flexible to changing my mind. I'll give this a bit more thought. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
You know what? I'm not going to change my mind. For more reasons than my previous 20+ diagram analysis, I feel that tenuki is good here. So let's do it! |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
This move is urgent now. I'm fine with the  -  exchange: it's the same as if I had played the komoku in the lower left instead of the 5-3, and black played an extension instead of approaching it. It's not bad for black, but it feels a bit soft. Of course, now black will make a large scale formation in the upper left, but that can't be helped. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
He takes an enclosure, I'll take an enclosure - keeps it balanced. The bottom is clearly a big place to play, since it is a nice extension from his enclosure for him, and for me, helps my enclosure. So I expect him to play as follows:
Maybe not this exact spot, but somewhere along the bottom to have the same effect of both hindering black's development on the bottom, and also developing white. It's a nice point for him to get, but not so nice that I should ignore the enclosure in the bottom right. That's because I still have a couple of big places to play after this. Assuming white plays on the bottom, for example, at the point shown above, I will likely then decide between the following:
This copies his development along the bottom to have something similar on the right. It might work alright with the aji in the top right that black has. I might not play low - I might play high at the marked point instead. I'm not sure yet. Alternatively, I can consider returning to my tenuki area:
This is nice on the top, but it's hard to say if it's better or not, since white can still get a point on the right this way:
So I'm not yet sure which way I'll play if he goes on the bottom. Since white gets a big point on the right in this last diagram, perhaps it's better for me to play that way, although, then white has opportunity to get into the top of the board. I think I recall something from Bill Spight about the importance of getting the last big point in the opening. It's a pity, but I feel that white will get the last big point here, unless I think of a better plan before making my next move. |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #228 VincentCB vs Kirby |
This is a bit unexpected  . My first feeling is to cut in the upper right, but I'll post my move later this evening when I have time to think. |
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