It is currently Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:51 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 298 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 15  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #101 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:39 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill,
Instead of :b44: trying to cap and split W:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . 4 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
how do you feel about Joaz's last diagram:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
where his :b44: continues to force W to connect back,
and plant B stones facing the top ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #102 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:00 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
the theory is simple for me: I should push his heavy eyeless stones toward my wall,
and make territory while attacking.
( Emphasis added. )

( For beginners. )
In JB's diagrams in post 99, he is not making territory.
Not directly, anyway. He is expanding his top moyo via his attack.
The moyo is not cash. Not yet. His hope is that in the future,
his moyo will somehow result in more cash for him.
This distinction is subtle, but important.
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
An attack can have various outcomes. For example, more cash,
more influence, a bigger moyo, strengthening a weak group,
connecting back to our friends, cutting off an enemy group,
reducing an enemy moyo, etc.
We can consider these as profit for the attacker.
(Of course, if an attack fails, the attacker may suffer a loss, too. )

In JB's variations, the profit is a bigger moyo for B, not direct cash.
Whether or not B can use his bigger moyo to bring in more cash later
depends on how B uses his moyo.
If B fails to use his moyo well, he may not end up with more cash from his attack.
If B uses his moyo well, he may.

When we discuss attack and defense, especially with beginners,
it's important to make this distinction.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #103 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:43 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3368
Hi, Ed.

Since Joaz posted before I did, I edited my post to comment on his :b44:. In brief, he is not driving the White stones towards the Black wall, but towards the White position on the right side, where they can help build a White moyo. However, Black is building his own moyo, so it's not a crazy plan.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #104 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:21 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I was supposed to spend the weekend scuba diving with seals in Scotland, but Hurricane Bertha has blown it out. :sad:

Joaz' move is a reasonable idea. My reply is multi-prurpose:
1) Indirectly strengthen my group
2) Stop Black connecting, which would be a lot of territory for him
3) Give me some nice pushes later on to make Black more over-concentrated and increase my thickness.

For example, suppose black plays as shown:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


44 here strneghtens black and tries to take some terrtiroy whilst attacking. So it's not a ridiculous move. But then I can bodge up my grooup in sente and take the big point at the top.

I think this is a reasonably sound approach to ultilising my thickness - ignoring it and using it to justify that my group on the other side of the board is strong.

I have a little aji left in the diagram too:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 O . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This sequence mya become viable. At the moment, Black doesn't need to answer 1 at 2, so it doesn't yet work. But it may work eventually. Joaz can also side-step this issue by playing slightly more crudely earlier:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 7 . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 8 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The 46-47 exchange isn't obviously good for black (although it may not be bad). I ssem to pick up an endgame move at a, although the cut at b is potential niggle. Which means maybe I shouldn't play the knight's move, I should push:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . a c 8 b . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This line in certainly possible. I still get endgame at a, and the push at b mighjt become fun. cutting at c could also be entertaining. I don't think my group is weak.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #105 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:52 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
How about...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #106 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:11 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
drmwc wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
But then I can bodge up my grooup in sente
- Can W end in sente with :w45: above ?
- Is there a more severe counter than :b46: ( that ends in sente for B ) ?
- Is :w47: overplay ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #107 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:35 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6706
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 434
Was liked: 3679
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Ignoring the urgency of defending the centre stones, on the top side 47 is if anything an underplay for a handicap game to me in that it makes it rather easy for black to find good moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b 0 . 9 . . 7 . 8 a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Both 48 and 50 make some nice territory and strength and aren't hard for a ~1d like Joaz to find (though maybe white would play 49 as 2-4 or something more exotic). Instead I would be tempted to try to start at a, aiming to not allow black such a large top right territory and sabaki in sente somehow to then take the top left 3-3 at b. Yes it's a bit of a greedy dream, but this kind of thing tends to work in handicap games. Then again after the lower side disaster white is catching up nicely so perhaps can take the more relaxed wedge in the middle. That does also settle more easily to avoid any splitting attacks with the centre group in the future.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #108 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:01 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Make fist before striking.

I know that I told the gallery that I would lean on him with a keima, but after playing out many scenarios, I have realized that his last move makes D8 too strong for him. When he does, I can't even hane.
This also makes a bit of territory, and makes the eventual leaning/capping attack even stronger.

The perceptive observer may note the word 'cap' has seeped in to the discourse. That is because I am still thinking - as mentioned a week or so back - that I would like to neutralize his strength on the right. I may allow him to escape to the north if I can get a few stones in the center in sente.

Furthermore, I might even be able to sneak up on him if he is not paying attention. My stone at O8 has some aji.

I'm thinking of something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . O . B . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . O . O , B . B . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And as a further fantasy: if I can make that cut hold, even S12 becomes a threat.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #109 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:53 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Make fist before striking.
I don't think that describes :b44: .

Seems -- wrong direction, slow, and over concentrated ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #110 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:57 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
I am leaning towards this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I think my three stones are relatively strong. Note that they have the following resource available:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not too keen on this sequence for me, since it gives me terrible shape. But the message is that I have easy access to the centre, so finding an effective attack for black is difficult.

Following my approach move, if black pincers I can nab some territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 0 1 . 2 . a . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X . . . . c , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . W B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . d X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I've bodeged the diagram to put on a possible continuation beyond move 10. Next I can choose an invasion point on the upper side (a, b, c etc.) The move at d is big but is a bit slow.

Alternatviely, I could double approach in reply to the pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This looks reasonably fun - it will generate some confusion, which typically favours white in a handicap game.

Black may look for other moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . b b X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The iron pillar move is sensible for black. Following it, I could try to expand on the upper side as much as possible. The move at a and b are miai for me next - if black prevents one, I get the other.

Another idea is a two space extension, and if blac blocks invade the LHS.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Finally, black could play a 1 point jump or knight's move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . 6 . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I could contemplate a plain sequence like the one above in reply. (Or course, black may diverge by pincering or attaching at move 4.) The drawbck with this sequence is that I''m behind and there are no immediate fights for me to dive into. I'd like to invade at a, but I may be becoming a little thin for this. SO I woulkd probably llok to avoid this ultra-calm line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This may be more fun. The three point is big, so if black protect I get to scoop a bit out of his top right group. Alternatively, I could go in at the 3-3 immiediately. This is currently quite fashionable in pro games. It's closed book, so I can't look up those games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #111 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:52 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8855
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
drmwc wrote:
Note that they have the following resource available:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Only if B cooperates ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #112 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:44 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


As discussed - I decided it was the most fun move here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #113 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:20 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
He has a heavy three-stone group pincered against a solid group of mine, and he starts another group?? This can't be theoretically sound.

He must be trying to complicate.

I'll be happy to oblige him. :rambo:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #114 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:25 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm keeping my groups strong. If he wants to complicate things, he'll have to do it with weak groups.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #115 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:46 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


AS planned. Next the following moves are miai:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . 5 . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


If I invade at the 3-3 immediately, black can just play solidly and I think it's no good for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 6 O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 8 . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I can't find a good invasion at the top: 9 as shown gets 10, and black is thick with lots of territory. Or I could do this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . 4 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Black will make territory whilst attacking. Another idea I rejected is this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This feels a little too simple - black's moves are natural and take territory whilst attacking. Next a doubela attack is likely aginst my top group and my LHS group, which I'm no keen on. I could stengthen either group with the next move, but I'm not in brilliant shape territorially so this isn't clearly good.

One other idea is to overplay a bit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . O . . 2 . . 1 . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

The aim here is to settle my RHS bit in sente, and then play a, b or c to look after the other bit. But it may be a little too energetic.

So the move as played is my favourite ot the avialable options.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #116 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:08 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
For observers:
There are three options: push from the left, push from the right, or split him.
( Actually, tenuki is a fourth, but the temperature is just too high along the top. )

My current thinking is that my upper right group has no future toward the right side and very little in the center. Thus, if it is going to mean anything, it will have to be used to make territory. So a move like 48 below is my current top candidate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . a . 7 . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Not only does it secure 15 or 20 points in the upper right, but it threatens to invade at 'a'.

This seems to leave white in an unpleasant situation.

First, he is behind on territory:
I have 15 solid points in the lower left side. I have 15 to 20 in the upper right. I have 20+ in the lower right. That is minimum 50 points, maybe 60ish. And I'm going to get a few more in the upper left.

He has about 15 in the lower left, and maybe 15 on the right side - but the right side is hard to measure. So at best he has 30 solid points. If he plays very greedily on the top, he might get another 15. But he would have to end in gote.

Second, he has at least one weak group, maybe two if he plays too riskily on the top. I have no weak groups. ( If he finishes in gote up top, his three stones on the left are sitting ducks. )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #117 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:51 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 7 . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This still looks best. He has to complicate soon if he wants to catch up, and this - with all my groups safe - is the most difficult position for him to do so.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #118 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:11 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
I have a few options.

First move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 3 . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This gives me very good shape. Being solid helps the 3 stones at the top. I still have vague ambitions for a cntreal moyo.

However, I'm clearly behind. Rough count (on a slightly optimistic basis, since future gains are likely):
W: 10 point top, 10-25 points RHS (including a moyo allowance in the upper estimate), 15-20 points lower side, total 35-55 points.
B: 15-20 points upper RHS, 5-15 points upp left, 15 point lower right, 15-20 points lower left. Total 45-70 points.

But there are clearly chances just through efficient large end-game moves. For example:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W 9 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . Y W O . . . . . . 7 8 Y . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . X . . . . . 6 4 |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . X . X 2 X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . W W |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X Y W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . Y Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


If this happens, white's RHS group is closer to the 20 point estimate; the 10 point top group estimate may be low; and black's upper RHS is closer to the 15 point estimate. So some slight black passivity gets me into the game, so this approach is very viable.

I need to consider the impact of black counter-attack:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 O . 2 . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 4 6 . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


White gets more territroy than the previous variation. However, black is very thick and can easily alos get more territroy. White's moyo potential is woth less heree. So this may be playable for white, although again white is behind and has a lot of work to do.

Second move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 O . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I am less keen on this line due to amount of territory black amasses.

Third move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 6 O . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . 8 . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I rejected a line very similar to thi in an earlier comment (with a different move order.) I still don't like the amount of thickness black makes here - my next move is very difficult. Of course, black may choose a compromsie e.g. playing 3 at a, which if realitvely good for white. However, I prefer to plan handicap games on the basis of best response from my opponent.

And finally...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 4 O . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 9 . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . Y O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O 2 4 . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X O 1 3 W . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . 8 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 9 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I can contemplate hane. Then if black resistes there are two lines to consider - going for the corner or going for the outside. I've shown the ouside line here, and it looks reasonably fun for white. My moyo look good; my three stones are definitely strong.


So black may need a less trong line e.g.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . O . a . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . b . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The question is for me is how this compares to the very first line - the weakness at a is irritating, for example. But if I get b in, the whole black group may become weak.

So my choice is between option 1) lines and option 4) lines. I am currently undecided.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #119 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:50 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 442
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 94
Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 7 . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #120 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:34 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 5459
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1044
Was liked: 1430
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
This is the current candidate:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . B . 7 . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But it can get really complicated. So I may take a few days to analyze.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 298 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 15  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group