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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #61 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:01 pm 
Judan
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For observers:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After J5 and the slide, he is safe. :sad: Playing the 3-3 does not threaten to kill...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm having second thoughts about this.
If I play the attack like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm34
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 5 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and he continues like this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm36
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 6 . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 O O 5 8 O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 9 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...then he can't save both sides:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm45
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or alternately like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm45
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 2 4 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 3 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even this last position can go wrong if white is not careful:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm49
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X X X X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X . X O O O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O O X O O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm49 53 fills
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X 9 . X X X X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X O O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | 8 . O O X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've skipped a lot of branches here - maybe including some terribly obvious one that settles the whole issue - but I'm not pretending to have made an exhaustive analysis. I'm just showing the complexities that arise if white tenukis too soon.

I suspect that Drmwc is looking at much the same thing, and that is why he is delaying his move.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #62 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:23 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The attachment leaves me too weak, so I think this is forced.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #63 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:20 am 
Judan
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To all: I may need a day or two to think about this.

To observers:
As mentioned earlier, I'm not certain if the 3-3 is a threat to kill. I have to figure out if it is.
If it is, I'll play it. If not, I'll play around C9/D10.

Although, I have been looking at some interesting ideas of playing some forcing moves on the lower side that he has to answer in a submissive manner while he is still weak, but that he could answer in a more assertive manner later if I were to delay them until he is stronger.

One example of this is playing H2 now if he cannot respond with J2. ( I sure would like to see him forced to respond to H2 with a connecting move on the third rank. Not only would this limit his territory, but it means that I would be able to get an eye with J2 later if my J5/M5 wall got cut off and had to fend for itself. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O b . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #64 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:34 am 
Judan
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My desktop died on Sunday, so I took the opportunity to complete the transition to Linux.
( I no longer use a Windows machine in my busness or personal life :D )
I've spent the better part of today installing drivers. So it may be another day or so until I make a move.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #65 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:09 pm 
Judan
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Posts: 5535
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Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


As noted before, I want to make him choose the safer move.
If he descends, then 3-3 is sente to kill.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #66 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:49 pm 
Judan

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Playing awful exchanges just to make sure the 3-3 is sente is not good. As drmwc posted, he was probably going to play the push anyway:

drmwc wrote:
If I play the slide, this is likely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I am not confident of living without 33. Even if I can live, without it any aji against the the B group will disappear and the game will be quite territorial, which may favour B.


Note that even if 3-3 is not sente, then all the follow-ups are which lets black get thick and points in sente so white has no chance to harass the black corner/wall.

So now we will get this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 1 . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


32 for 33 is clearly rubbish.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #67 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:17 pm 
Gosei
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Aren't we just going to see this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #68 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:27 pm 
Judan

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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Loons wrote:
Aren't we just going to see this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I didn't actually think of ignoring it as it's a bad exchange for black. But your sequence leaves white too thin:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm36
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 1 6 O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 O 5 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


And if 41 clamps black connects in sente and then saves the corner stone and white squirms/dies.

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Loons
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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #69 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:15 am 
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The 3-3 seemed good enough. Black doesn't need to be trying to attack like this; and it's not an effective attack because White easily dodges by sliding in to take the big 3-3 point. After Black cuts off the right stones White has actually gained forcing moves in this area. Also, noticing White's heavy investment of influence on the right, it's more likely that Black could have used the 3-3 point to better counter White's influence later in the game.

Speaking from a different perspective, the move has widened the game for White, rather than narrowed it.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #70 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:33 am 
Judan

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So maybe this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

Probably 33 for 34 is a good exchange for white: in terms of territory it is, but it does make black's shape outside thicker so I'm not 100% sure.... Also given drmwc's style I don't expect him to sacrifice the 2 stones.
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #71 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:29 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Curious move. It appears to lose a few points, so I will grab the money.

Maybe Joaz is after a squeeze:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B's aim?
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X a . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X b 7 4 . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 6 O 3 8 O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 0 5 9 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


After this, B ataris at a and shuts white in. It's not necessarily bad for white - a weakish group lives with 15-20 points, and a hole at b appears. However, I can side-step the issue:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B's aim?
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 4 . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O 3 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . 5 . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


6 as above avoids the squeeze.

I could contemplate some other approaches with my move 31 e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . O 4 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

Playing at the 3-3 may well lead to an exchange. This line looks boring for white. Black gets some territory on the side, and more importantly elimates a large source of bad aji/potential weak group. The game will become quite territorial without much attacking. So I prefer to avoid this.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #72 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:44 am 
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( For beginners. )

This kind of exchange, :b32: - :w33: — if it works, if B kills W, then it's good.
But if it doesn't, then it's just basic broken shape for B,
and Uberdude already covered the eww-ness.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #73 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:12 am 
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #74 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:43 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


So my opponent does not want to make easy life for me. This means that he is thinking of eventually pushing through at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X a a X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


In return, I get the opportunity to use the aji of H2 to strengthen my wall. I'm going to start with this, threatening G3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 If 35 tenukis
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 8 7 . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 6 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 0 9 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #75 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Note the diagonal relationship between :b32: and :b34:. :)

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #76 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


B has an interesting strategy of trying to play quickly whilst giving up bits and bobs. I think it loses some points - the 32/33 exchange is clearly bad.

However, The move played is clearly sente e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 bad for white
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . O 6 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This line is bad for me.

So given I've decided to reply, which point is best? The move below looks interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . 1 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


But this leave me very thin - black at a next may work immediately. So I've decided to play solidly and bide my time. If Joaz next takes the 3-3, my decision is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I have the choice of two points - I can tenuki the 3-3 due to the 2-3 excchange, although it leaves me thin and B at 7 may be sente.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #77 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:58 am 
Judan

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White caught up almost a stone now? 32 lost about 5 points I guess (trying to factor in black lost option to make eye/a few points with j2, white m3 threatens to connect now, white still has a nice peep at h6)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #78 Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:30 pm 
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To my opponent and observers: Life has been busy lately. It may be a few more days.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #79 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:44 am 
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Bump! :)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck
Post #80 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:23 pm 
Judan
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Sorry everyone, a new business venture developed some complications, but they have recently been beaten into submission.

I'll move now, make comments later.

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