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 Post subject: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:43 pm 
Oza

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I hope it won't be too painful for people to watch two ddks slugging it out!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Enjoy the game!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Plan is to get more experience in the Chinese opening. We'll see how Drewch opens.

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Post #2 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:52 pm 
Honinbo
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Have fun!
One :evil: for every broken shape (of if somebody misses one). :)

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #3 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:58 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Enjoy the game!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is my standard opening as white, I always take the 3-4 points.

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Post #4 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:59 pm 
Dies with sente

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EdLee wrote:
Have fun!
One :evil: for every broken shape (of if somebody misses one). :)


Haha I will be trying my hardest not to let you down!

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #5 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:21 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm actually completely unsure how a Chinese opening works with a 3,4 opening in the lower left. Still Drewch wants a moyo game which suits me perfectly. I think I'm stronger in the fuseki than Drewch is but I know for a fact that he's much stronger tactically than I am so he's the perfect opponent for me right now from a learning perspective. I'm expecting a second 3,4 in the top left now.


Ed, if there weren't any broken shapes it wouldn't be a proper ddk game now would it? :D

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:37 am 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still my standard opening for white. Looks like he might be doing an enclosure opening, or Chinese opening. If enclosure I will approach the top right corner. If Chinese, I will approach from N4

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #7 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:53 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This makes sense to me I think. If I play R9, he can do a large keima enclosure in the bottom left and reducing my potential moyo while forming a large potential moyo for himself. Of course, if he pincers me here this gets interesting! Personally I'd do a simple attachement joseki here as white, and take sente to play Q5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is ok for black. I'm too much of a beginner to have much faith in my opinion here though! :D

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #8 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:00 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . 2 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems bigger to ignore and play there. I just watched a KGS+ lecture (the most recent one), on chinese opening and how people now play 5, and then they finish the chinese opening after I answer to 5 locally. I doubt this is what he is doing, since he is not a KGS+ member, so I don't think he saw that lecture (and it's relatively new theory I think). But either way, I learned that this is bigger. I hope I'm not wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #9 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:07 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not very surprised by this move by him. Fighting time. :D

I think the pincer is sufficiently severe here and works better with the star point in the top right.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:34 am 
Oza

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Before we start the joseki section, Drewch what rules do you want on aids? Do you want to do it like a turn based server where an analysis board and/or joseki dictionary are allowed or do you want to rule out all aids and work from memory?

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Post #11 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:04 am 
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Still Drewch wants a moyo game which suits me perfectly.
What do you mean by this? What made you say he wanted a moyo game?

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Post #12 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:23 am 
Oza

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EdLee wrote:
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Still Drewch wants a moyo game which suits me perfectly.
What do you mean by this? What made you say he wanted a moyo game?


Ed,

Hmm, maybe moyo game is the wrong term here. I meant that he wanted facing positions rather than allowing for cross positions and me forcing it to be a territory game.

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Post #13 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:34 am 
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
I meant...rather than allowing for cross positions and me forcing it to be a territory game.
Could you show a few more moves starting with your variation of :w2: to show what you mean by this? :)

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #14 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:04 am 
Oza

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Ed,

I don't like the following response by white but:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . 7 . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . x . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has invasion points at the x's to disrupt and needs to invade asap here.

Versus:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The first leads to a potentially more large moyo based game if white allows it, while the second tends towards a more territory based game unless white deliberately allows black to build one I think.

I could be completely wrong here and I don't like my playing out of either scenario (a lack of experience in even games means I haven't seen enough styles yet to be any good at this). These of course being the key reasons for us having this Malkovich game! I hope any errors in my thinking are clear.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:58 pm 
Dies with sente

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KGS: drewch
Boidhre wrote:
Before we start the joseki section, Drewch what rules do you want on aids? Do you want to do it like a turn based server where an analysis board and/or joseki dictionary are allowed or do you want to rule out all aids and work from memory?


Since it's a study game, I think looking at a joeski dictionary is okay.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:09 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
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I am going to try to force him to make some moves in this corner, which I should be able to end in sente, and then play along the bottom to try to build some large bottom middle territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My goal is to leave bottom left in sente and get stone A. If he ignores bottom left then I am going to gain a lot of territory.


Last edited by Drewch on Tue May 08, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:29 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O , X . 9 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to keep the joseki as simple as possible since I'm weaker tactically.

I'm hoping for:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O , X . X O . y . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . x . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aiming at the attachment at x and extension to y later on.

As an aside, I think studying joseki's like these definitely helps with shape.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #18 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:16 am 
Tengen
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@Drewch:

If you deliberately tenuki'd his last corner move, what makes you think you'll be getting sente to play the first move on the bottom? I'm interested as to why your think the situation is different in the lower left corner to the lower right corner

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #19 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:04 am 
Oza

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Hmm, I forgot to give my reasoning for responding to him in the lower left. I think allowing him a strong position in the lower left is bigger than me getting one in the lower right right now. Specifically I don't want him to build a wall in the lower left facing his position on top. In the lower left I've the choice of the corner and side or outside influence and neither is hugely appealing to me given he gets to control the direction of play in the lower left. If the directional orientation of my 3,4 stone faced my upper right stone I'd have happily taken a wall facing my position.

The simplest outcome in the bottom right for me would have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I made a grave error here though I think as white should not tenuki here from going through a database (SmartGo). (I felt looking at the "joseki" that White couldn't tenuki here so I checked) If he played at a, I could have tenuki'd and continued a normal joseki in the lower left. If he neglects to play a I can ignore his tenuki and play at a myself most likely as I don't think he can afford to let this corner die after investing so much into it.


Lesson learned for future games. :)


Edit:

Actually, I can hopefully tenuki in sente at some point on the left. Hmmm. Now the question of timing. It all depends on his response in the left.

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 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #20 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:41 am 
Dies with sente

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topazg wrote:
@Drewch:

If you deliberately tenuki'd his last corner move, what makes you think you'll be getting sente to play the first move on the bottom? I'm interested as to why your think the situation is different in the lower left corner to the lower right corner


@Topazg

My goal in the bottom right was to play M4 and gain large territory in the bottom middle. But first I want to establish my position in the bottom on the left side as the board as well. In most Joeseki's that I looked up for what is going to happen in the bottom left in the next few moves. It looks like I will have sente, and I will play M4, and he will likely take my stone at R5, which is fine with me.

Not sure if my line of thinking is great. but I should get a large bottom middle territory. However, this leaves D15 has a large move for me after because I cannot just let him get all the corners. (He will have bottom right, 0.5 of the bottom left). While I have the bottom middle.

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