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#232 TIM82 vs Skydyr http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9927 |
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Author: | skydyr [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:12 am ] |
Post subject: | #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Two stones seemed ok, as I'm probably about aga 2k or so these days. Closed book.
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Author: | TIM82 [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
skydyr wrote: Two stones seemed ok, as I'm probably about aga 2k or so these days. Closed book. Have a good game! Just to clarify, will closed book mean also no playing out sequences on a board or not? Either is fine with me, as long as we both play the same way.
This is not as odd as it may seem - I want to put some puzzles to black from the beginning, without any pure overplays. The "worst" that can happen is that I end up approaching from inside the black framework, instead of from "my" corner on move three. A below is the black move which would irritate me the most. If black responds with B below, I might consider approaching at C next, who knows. If black takes D, I might take position in bottom right corner, aiming at E.
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Author: | skydyr [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Playing out seems similar to writing posts with sequences in them, so I think that should be fine. I just meant no looking up joseki and such.
If my opponent wants to open like this, he's more than welcome. I'm not terribly worried about a double approach, and would be happy to tenuki for a third corner instead of fixing the shape for my opponent. Alternatively, if he takes the last corner, it's not terribly different from normal. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
well, ok, I wont give you four corners. A bit shame that we revert back to more normal... |
Author: | skydyr [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
My opponent appears to be playing for miai, as well as to confuse.
Here, a move at A and a pincer around B seem somewhat miai. If A, black will be pressed down and then white will approach the top right to build something on the top. If at B, white will push black into gote and then take the corner enclosure. Some alternatives I'm considering are C, to let white do his thing, and D, to take left side influence and reduce an enclosure. The last option is to just respond calmly to in the lower left, as white can't make anything of the side quite yet. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
If black comes inside at A, I'm thinking of B next. After that, if C I would be happy with the result of the normal joseki, and if D instead, I would happy to train sequences I'm not very familiar with. Could be funny to compare to joseki books afterwards... 33 point in top left would be irritating, as I feel it would be much harder for me to build things pushing it around.
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Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
I like , as a kind of wedge. If , makes a base in the corner and threatens the stone.
If takes the 3-3, makes a base on the side and aims at invading or sliding into the White position on the side. BTW, against the top left corner is an old joseki which is not obsolete, but is seldom played.
Perhaps on the previous move would have been better.
The left side is not urgent, and is a good move. In a two stone game it may be the practical choice. Edit: Unhidden. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
No idea what Bill is saying, but just a clarification after rereading my previous comment: of course black does not have to enter my structure, I just wanted to discuss options if he enters. Elsewhere on the board, a black extension on the top seems like best candidate to me (otherwise I would get to approach next at A). If black makes such an extension, I would probably approach at or around B to stop black getting extensions on both sides from top right hoshi.
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Author: | skydyr [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
To me, the biggest things are either working to split up white's potential on the left, or making my own on the right. Regarding A B and C: B is pretty straightforward. Take the corner and let white build a wall towards his other stones. Maybe something to consider later. C is conceding the corner to ruin the outside, but I think the wall may end up misplaced if I end in gote and white fixes the left side group after. A is a bit more complicated. I don't think that the press or taisha are good for white , as the thickness after black picks a simple taisha variant or gets pressed down is facing in a weird direction. Similarly, an extension by white would imply an extension by black, which increases invasion potential against the left side white group. I would expect a low pincer, perhaps the one space pincer:
This looks playable, but I still lean towards the right side instead.
Followups I see here for white are A and B, and neither of them seem ideal. If B, I would expect to low one-space pincer. My only concerns are if these lines end well:
I'm not sure I like conceding all that influence and making the corner harder to enter without hurting my group, and the cutting variations don't end spectacularly because white has the ladder with D10. Perhaps just the one space jump response to N17 would be fine. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Well, I take this then. |
Author: | skydyr [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
As planned. Now white has miai-ishness between settling and the corner enclosure.
I expect something like this, or I may go into the upper left instead. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
If the game did continue this way, it would exemplify a fairly common kind of low handicap fuseki, where Black goes his own way, and White develops on a large scale. White is thin, OC, but with the difference in skill, Black may not be able to take advantage of that.
Edit: Well, that's not how the play went. Unhidden. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
This is the honest move, IMHO. I was tempted to throw in an approach to bottom right corner first (probably A), but with good play black should surely get sente from that approach to return to top side first, which I don't like. Lets see what black wants to do now...
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Author: | skydyr [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Well, in we go. I'm thinking at this point that the outside is bigger, hence the high approach. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
@skydyr
It seems you didn't consider this one, which is a good way to establish a settled group in the marked shape. |
Author: | skydyr [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Uberdude wrote: @skydyr
It seems you didn't consider this one, which is a good way to establish a settled group in the marked shape. I didn't write about it, but I did consider it.
I figured something like this would happen, with white strengthening his group on the other side as well, and black still having some weakenesses if he tenukied right away, so I was reluctant to play this way and give up the corner. Admittedly, my move was a bit impulsive after looking at the 3-3 and 3-4 and rejecting them, but sometimes that's how I play, I guess. EDIT: The more I think about this, I kept looking at that move and wanting to play it, and then thinking 'no, that can't be right'. This happens much more than I'd care to admit. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Notes #7 and #12 unhidden. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Like this up to ? Rest of the sequence just shows one reason why is where it is.
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Author: | skydyr [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
Fairly certain this is sente against the corner so that I can extend afterwards. If white doesn't respond locally, I can push and cut. I expect to followup with C12 unless white does something weird. |
Author: | TIM82 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #232 TIM82 vs Skydyr |
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